D&D 5E Jeff's +5 Bonus Idea Good?

[ren1999]

I've toyed with his idea and I think I've come up with something the designers were leaning toward. In the latest play-test, many of the bounded score and bonus numbers are hovering around 25.

My system was a little strict and boring. But Jeff's numbers are metric and easier to remember.

This is how it would look, would you go for a system like this?

Ability Modifiers
The maximum ability score would be 25. This is already in keeping with the average increasing number. 4th edition went higher but the math became a nightmare at higher level game play.

max abi = 25
abi mod = abi score - 10 / 3
That is a +1 bonus every 3 points above 10. This meets the standard good design principle of noticable improvements every 3 points.
str25(+5)
We are saying here that natural ability is important but not as important as in previous editions because there are other sources for bonuses.

max lvl = 25
lvl mod = lvl / 5
That is a +1 bonus every 5 levels.
lvl 25(+5)
We are saying here that as you level-up, you are constantly hitting and doing damage and you impove over the years. That this experience is just as important as natural ability to hit and damage.

Since abi and lvl give a potential of +5 bonuses each, feats and magic should too.

People argue for the removal of feats and I tend to agree that level bonus could replace it. But leaving in feats satisfies those who want to spend a "tax" to impove their to hit and damage. But they aren't required to as feats only now account for 1/4th of their possible bonuses.

Magic could range from -5 cursed to +5 blessed. This includes both items and spell and prayer effects.

So a maximum strength based to hit would look like this.
1d20
+str25(+5)
+lvl25(+5)
+feat+5
+magic+5
=1d20+20
+ advantage or disadvantage situation modifier

The damage would mirror this. We've got to keep the basic damage roll down in order not to inflate everything.
1[w] = 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12 or 2d6 or 3d4
+str25(+5)
+lvl25(+5)
+feat+5
+magic+5
=1[w]+20
At higher levels we can offer a max of 2 main, 2 off-hand attacks per turn.
That should cut down combat time considerably even without inflated damage dice. The bonus will take care of the higher damage.
no damage bonus for advantage

 

[ren1999]

As for high level characters and monsters,
Asmodeus would have AC25 25d12 hit dice in addition to having other skills like teleport back to his home plane to return again to fight even if he is struck down.

 

[Sunseeker]

I have suggested this before, though you actually would end up with a maximum of 25, as there are 5 categories, unless you discount magic item enhancement bonuses, or at least dont apply them to hit. But I think a system based around 5's is a sound concept, though I do not suggest changing modifier division. Just leave it at 20 and keep the (stat-10)/2 math the same.

 

[variant]

I don't see any point to having the max level and max attributes set at 25 when they are already set at 20 which is far more in line with actual D&D. Odds are there is going to be epic level rules at some point regardless for people that want to level to 30.

All this did was reiterate bound accuracy and change some numbers up at no apparent actual benefit to the system.

 

[ren1999]

Shidaku, you think we should keep ability modifiers the same as they are now but keep other modifiers at a max of +5?

 

[ren1999]

While the max ability score of a humanoid is 20, the max ability score of a Storm Giant is Str 29(+9).

I'm saying that the max strength of the strongest pc or npc would be str25(+5)

 

[Sunseeker]

Shidaku, you think we should keep ability modifiers the same as they are now but keep other modifiers at a max of +5?

Yes, (20-10)/2 still = a +5 bonus from a fully-maxed stat.
So we would have:
+5 mod
+5 class
+5 feat
+5 magic buff
+5 magic item.

So, we'd get an ABOLSUTE maximum of +25.

This is of course, only going to happen in the best of situations with a properly maxed parties.
We could reduce the maximum possible modifier by making an enhancement bonus apply to damage only, leave maximum to-hit at 20.

In your average party, players are unlikely to be feat-maxed, likely getting only up to a +3 in favor of other flavorful options.
Players are also unlikely to always have max enhancement weapons, probably a 3 or 4 by level 20.
Likewise buffs may not always be present, so we can't assume that they are.

I mean really the only thing we're pretty much guaranteed to have maxed are class because it maxes automatically, and primary damage-modifer stat since going from a good roll of 16 plus your racial bonus, plus your class bonus to 18, you'll get capped at 20 by level 6. So we can only guarantee a player is going to get +10 to attacks on a regular basis.

With that being the minium, and 25 being the maximum, that means enemies should assume the median of 12.5, round up to 13 for average challenge. So a player is swinging with a +10(average 20 to hit) against a +13(average 23 AC), giving them a fairly solid change to hit an average-challenge enemy. Players who optimize to get that full 20 or 25 would only need more challenging enemies. And if WOTC keeps it as simple to improve monster defenses and output as they did in 4e, then that will hardly be a problem. Optimized monsters against optimized players is a fair deal I say. My biggest gripe with older editions is simply how complicated it was to "upgrade" a monster for play against optimized players.

I think everything could reasonably be built on a +5 maximum modifier system.

 

[Fanaelialae]

This is just my personal preference, but I think a 20+ disparity (everyone gets the level bonus, but some might have low stats or misc penalties) is too much. It creates such a wide range that either the ultra-specialist cannot fail or non-specialists cannot hope to succeed.

I'd rather see bonuses top out around +10, maybe +15 at most.

 

[Warbringer]

Doesn't feel very flat .....

Magic max +3
Ability mod + 5
Class +5
Feat +2 .. If any

1st level fighter
(+0+4+1+1) .... +6

10th level fighter
(+2+5+3+2) .... +12

20th level fighter
Max ..... +15

I know the last step feels weak, but as is at moment 10-20 doesn't scale like 1-10 anyway ...

 

[Stormonu]

I kind of like the ability modifier at every 3 points, with a max of 25 (+5) - it's very close to the B/X-BECMI modifiers. [I think it's kind of interesting that CS dice sort of give % Strength back to fighters, but without requiring them to have 18 starting strength].

If we do have a level modifier, +1 every 5 levels seems good, though I'm personally not so keen about levels above 20, so +1/4 levels would work for me.

I'd like to see the other modifiers stripped down to two types - mundane and magic. Mundane can be equipment, situation, skill or feat modifiers* (max +5 total). Magical would be supernatural, spells or magic items (max +5 total). Grand total bonus we shouldn't then see exceed +15 for characters who've maxxed themselves out.

* I'd really like to remove numerical bonuses from feats and make them into "expanded action" abilities. That way they could be dropped off in those games where the DM & players would rather fiat what a given character is capable of ("I'm a swashbuckler; I ought to be able to use two weapons at once handily!")

Most of all, what I'd like to see is hit points flattened. After 9th or 10th level the ol' +1, +2 or +3 hp per level (with NO Con bonus) would take a step toward making near infinite level progression possible and help keep numbers from inflating too far out of bounds.