Jeremy Crawford On The Dark Side of Developing 5E

WotC's Jeremy Crawford spoke to The Escapist about the D&D 5th Edition development process and his role in the game's production. "There was a dark side where it was kind of crushing. The upside is it allowed us to have a throughline for the whole project. So I was the person who decided if what we had decided was important two years prior was still being executed two years later."


You can read the full interview here, but below are the key highlights.

  • Mike Mearls started pondering about D&D 5th Edition while the 4E Essentials books were being worked on in 2010.
  • There were "heated discussions" about the foundations of 5E.
  • Crawford is the guy who "made the decision about precisely what was going to be in the game".
  • Crawford considers D&D's settings as an important pillar.


For another recent interview, see Chris Perkins talking to Chris "Wacksteven" Iannitti.
 

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When I stick Forgotten Realms into the DriveThru search box
As an aside, why would you use the DTRPG search box, when DNDClassics (which is DTRPG's "face" for selling D&D PDFs) has a perfectly fine filtering system down the left-hand side, where you can choose to view all FR books, or all 2nd edition books, or maybe all 2nd edition FR books?
 

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If only a third of existing D&Ders played 4e, how did it beat out Pathfinder in 2009 store sales, even though pitting supplement releases against always-strongest core releases, /and/ simultaneously cannibalizing store sales with DDI?

I am pretty sure that 4e started out stronger than it finished. Early ENWorld polls seemed to reflect over half the people playing 4e, but as time progressed, that number kept falling.
 

I am pretty sure that 4e started out stronger than it finished.
Every edition has, so that's a safe bet. There was a dramatic inflection point with the release of Essentials, though, that's when Pathfinder had that one quarter of #1 IcV2 in-store sales, before D&D went on hiatus.


But, we can really make almost any confirmation-bias-catering narrative plausible with the limited bits and pieces of 'information' (and loads of baseless speculation) we have about D&D's success in the market place. It really doesn't matter much when put in perspective, since it is such a tiny marketplace.
 

As an aside, why would you use the DTRPG search box, when DNDClassics (which is DTRPG's "face" for selling D&D PDFs) has a perfectly fine filtering system down the left-hand side, where you can choose to view all FR books, or all 2nd edition books, or maybe all 2nd edition FR books?
Because I couldn't remember the url or name for "D&D classics", and when I googled "DriveThru Wizards" and "DriveThru RPG" and maybe one other, similar search term "D&D classics" didn't come up!

If it's easy to get to D&D classics from the WotC site (seems unlikely, but stranger things have happened) then my comments on catalogue/index may be wrong!

(Having just looked at what comes up for GH, it's a bit quirky but seems to roughly do the job.)
 

Every edition has, so that's a safe bet.

Not true, actually.

Tony Vargas said:
But, we can really make almost any confirmation-bias-catering narrative plausible with the limited bits and pieces of 'information' (and loads of baseless speculation) we have about D&D's success in the market place. It really doesn't matter much when put in perspective, since it is such a tiny marketplace.

With all due respect, the size of the market is what it is at any given time, and within that context, there is quite a bit of difference between the profitablity of different players and the amount of material they move at any given time. And it matters quite a bit to those who are producing said material.

And as to plausible scenarios, some are more plausible than others, no matter the spin or personal desires of observers.
 

If it's easy to get to D&D classics from the WotC site (seems unlikely, but stranger things have happened) then my comments on catalogue/index may be wrong!
Well, given how much the Wizards website sucks, getting to DNDClassics is fairly easy. It is linked from the top menu (under Product Info/Tabletop Games), and they've linked to it from many of their articles.
 

Not true, actually.
It's common wisdom among industry insiders (and fans, obviously) that new core books sell best, and later supplements taper off. I've never seen any actual data to contradict that. If you have some, by all means, point to it.

With all due respect, the size of the market is what it is at any given time, and within that context, there is quite a bit of difference between the profitablity of different players and the amount of material they move at any given time. And it matters quite a bit to those who are producing said material.
Sure, for producers only making TTRPGs. WotC isn't one of those.

And as to plausible scenarios, some are more plausible than others, no matter the spin or personal desires of observers.
Everyone one can judge 'plausibility' through their own lens of perception and confirmation bias, yes. That's the point. There's so little data that it's easy to shuffle it around, fill in some speculation or wishful thinking, squint, and see exactly what you want. That's the point.
 

It's common wisdom among industry insiders (and fans, obviously) that new core books sell best, and later supplements taper off. I've never seen any actual data to contradict that. If you have some, by all means, point to it.

It may be "common wisdom" but there are still exceptions. Pathfinder most notably, began with perhaps 10 percent market share and then grew that substantially until their market share was larger than WotC's. They are on record as stating that their selling of Core Rulebooks increased over time, not decreased. It may have plateaued already, but they most certainly grew in popularity and it was not the 1st edition of their rulebook that sold the best I don't think. Core-books aside, I would not be surprised if there were not more ADnD players at the end of the 1st edition then at the beginning. Likewise, with 2nd and 3rd edition. Contrarily, it seems to me that there were less observable 4e players at the end of the run of that edition than at the beginning. Thus they ended weaker than they began.

Sure, for producers only making TTRPGs. WotC isn't one of those.

Which is a mostly irrelevant point to the discussion. The success of DnD as an RPG is gauged by its success within the market that exists.

Everyone one can judge 'plausibility' through their own lens of perception and confirmation bias, yes. That's the point. There's so little data that it's easy to shuffle it around, fill in some speculation or wishful thinking, squint, and see exactly what you want. That's the point.

It might be "easy" to do, but that does not prove everyone does it. :)
 

If only a third of existing D&Ders played 4e, how did it beat out Pathfinder in 2009 store sales, even though pitting supplement releases against always-strongest core releases, /and/ simultaneously cannibalizing store sales with DDI?

That's because most of Pathfinder's material is sold online through their subscription plan so it's only fitting that D&D sold more in stores.

So where exactly were you going with this?
 

That's because most of Pathfinder's material is sold online through their subscription plan so it's only fitting that D&D sold more in stores.
Sure, and if the WotC community DDI group numbers were to be believed, 4e was pulling in millions in DDI subscriptions. But neither company has shared their numbers.

So both are just sources of uncertainty.

It may be "common wisdom" but there are still exceptions. Pathfinder most notably, began with perhaps 10 percent market share and then grew that substantially until their market share was larger than WotC's.
Of course, Pathfinder was a product line of adventures before a D&D 3.5 clone was added to it. What year is that 10% from?

They are on record as stating that their selling of Core Rulebooks increased over time, not decreased. It may have plateaued already, but they most certainly grew in popularity and it was not the 1st edition of their rulebook that sold the best I don't think.
They're on record as saying a lot of things when preaching to their choir of devoted fans, but it's not like they opened their ledgers to the public. But, it's certainly plausible that, as 3.5 holdouts got bored with it, they migrated to Pathfinder.

Like I said, with very little hard information, it's very easy to devise a plausible scenario to your liking.

Core-books aside, I would not be surprised if there were more ADnD players at the end of the 1st edition then at the beginning.
I would be shocked. In the early 80s, D&D was a fad, there were tons of people at least trying it. In '89, at the end of AD&D 1e's run, that had dropped off precipitously, down to the hard-core that still sustains the game today.

(If you want anecdotes, when I started in 1980, my entire circle of junior-high friends were playing and we were not alone, by junior year in high school there were two of us still interested. In 1978 there were 3 gaming stores with in-store D&D being played in the area - The Dragon's Den, The Game Reserve, and The Game Table. By '88, they had all closed their doors. And I was the last GM running AD&D when the Game Table closed - the other games being run there were Champions, Battletech, Traveler and GURPS.)

Likewise, with 2nd and 3rd edition.
2nd edition went into the teeth of the CCG, LARP, indie and Storytelling trends in gaming. Young players virtually disappeared from D&D tables, taking up M:tG instead, existing ones abandoned the game, WWGS and SJG were rapidly becoming the headspace leaders in the industry, which became increasingly fragmented into myriad 'not D&D' (D&D being the poster boy for despised 'ROLL playing') niches. I'm fairly confident that 2e saw a further decline in numbers of players, but I can't cite numbers to prove it - AFAIK, there aren't any. But the visible trends of the decade all point that way.

All that turned around with 3.0 & d20. Players came back to D&D, and erstwhile direct competitors jumped on the d20 bandwagon.

Contrarily, it seems to me that there were less observable 4e players at the end of the run of that edition than at the beginning. Thus they ended weaker than they began.
It seems that way to you because of your personal confirmation bias. It seemed to me like there were remarkably /more/, and that very few of them were longtime players. Different points of view in different contexts. Hard numbers would be needed to resolve that difference. Hard numbers I'm afraid probably don't exist.

Presumably, though, 4e followed the usual trend in sales, starting strong with the core books and tapering off - just like every other edition has.

Which is a mostly irrelevant point to the discussion. The success of DnD as an RPG is gauged by its success within the market that exists.
That's one gauge. It's not the one that matters to WotC, it's success within the context of being a unit of Hasbro that matters. IcV2 reported the in-store sales of TTRPGs as 15 mill, out of almost half a million in the slightly broader 'hobby games' segment it was tracking, with CCGs accounting for most of it. WotC has one TTRPG it's producing ATM, and owns several more, they're obviously bringing in less than 15 mill. WotC also own several CCGs, including two of the most popular of all time. One of them brings in over 100 million. In that context, D&D is a low-performing product line. Hasbro is a 7 billion dollar company. In that context, WotC is a good performing unit, thanks, for now, only to it's CCGs. Winning the TTRPG market with D&D - even sowing it up entirely - wouldn't change that. Growing the market by a factor of 5 or 10 and winning it would - that's what they tried, and failed, to do with 4e (mainly via DDI and on-line products that never materialized). They're obviously not trying to do it now.



It might be "easy" to do, but that does not prove everyone does it. :)
There's simply not enough data for proof, so it's all anyone /can/ pull together. So, yes, constructing plausible-with-enough-confirmation-bias scenarios is what everyone is doing in discussions like this.
 
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