JollyDoc's Shackled City: FINAL POST [Updated 11/2!!]

[Neverwinter Knight]

Nice story, JD! That ice devil was nasty indeed.

What you like I find a clear cut example of circumventing both the spirit, intent and actual meaning of that wow. In short, cheating.

I wouldn't be that harsh. Exploit yes - cheating no. Small line, big difference. From a roleplaying perspective I would accept it as DM.

 

[Zimri]

Would you still consider it a cheat ,monboesen, had another party member attacked grimm for subdual damage ?

A darn shame to see Caine and Walthros gone. I wish I lived near where you all were gaming.

 

[ltclnlbrain]

Were the players dissatisfied when they returned to find Ike dead already? I definitely would have wanted to personally take revenge against him had I been in the situation. Nonetheless, it is quite the fitting end for an arrogant jerk who deals with devils, especially those whose CRs are 4 higher than they are supposed to be.

 

[Lela]

What you like I find a clear cut example of circumventing both the spirit, intent and actual meaning of that wow. In short, cheating.

Actually, I think the Apostle of Peace can Remove Fear.

But then again I find the whole concept of an adventuring pacifist stupid. This is just an example of why it does not work. Such a character will continually be faced with the choise of breaking his wows or seeing his friends die.

If you face no temptation, then your vows are meaningless. And Caine has kept his friends alive on more than one occasion without breaking his vow. He has nothing to be ashamed of.

It's worth noting that Caine has taken a Vow not to cause others harm. He has not, however taken a Vow to prevent others from causing harm. He doesn't try to force his beliefs on anyone. He only tries to use his abilities protect his friends and, to take a term from Charmed, innocents.

 

[Joachim]

What you like I find a clear cut example of circumventing both the spirit, intent and actual meaning of that wow. In short, cheating.

Actually, JD got the story kind of wrong. Jules never actually _hit_ Grimm, but fired a warning shot to miss, as was ordered by his master Caine. Regardless of intent, the 'aggressive' action broke the pacifying touch. Caine would have attempted to subdue himself, but he was out of actions for the turn, thus he turned to his familiar for assistance.

IMHO, a rules loophole, but a justifiable one. Darn good idea as well, considering the situation.

 

[Joachim]

Were the players dissatisfied when they returned to find Ike dead already? I definitely would have wanted to personally take revenge against him had I been in the situation. Nonetheless, it is quite the fitting end for an arrogant jerk who deals with devils, especially those whose CRs are 4 higher than they are supposed to be.

As you will read later, we found out _why_ JD made the mistake that he did...he was reading a little too far into the module and got confused.

 

[monboesen]

Actually, JD got the story kind of wrong. Jules never actually _hit_ Grimm, but fired a warning shot to miss, as was ordered by his master Caine. Regardless of intent, the 'aggressive' action broke the pacifying touch. Caine would have attempted to subdue himself, but he was out of actions for the turn, thus he turned to his familiar for assistance.

IMHO, a rules loophole, but a justifiable one. Darn good idea as well, considering the situation.

Given the situation and the looming TPK I can understand why it happened and why the dm let it slip. But to me asking your familiar to take aggresive action is no different than doing it yourself (and I seem to remember that it is not the first time Jules has done real damage). If Jules missed on purpose I likely would have had Grimm make some kind of check to see through the ruse of a "fake" attack.

As for the pacifist traveling with companions whom are not only willing to fight and kill, but also exceptionally skilled at it. Well... it just seems so contrived to me. Why would such a person keep going on with others that clearly are not going to be swayed to his cause.

And even worse, should they ever be the game would either end or at least be so radically changed that it would be very hard to go on. With hordes of vanquished, but living, enemies that now needs to dealt with in some peaceful and meaningful manner. In a game with clearly inherent good and evil creatures the concept of pacifism just don't work for me.

This is not a critique of this particular game or the characters and players in it, but a point of view on the wow of peace in general.

 

[Lela]

JD actually decided a while back that a familiar such as Jules has a will of his own. It can choose to do things Caine doesn't order him to do, or was ordered not to. And he doesn't have a Vow of Peace.

It's worth noting that Good characters, in general, don't force their views on others. Yes, LG characters do tend to push other creatures toward their point of veiw more but they don't force. That's the province of LN and LE.

As to Caine's goal of pacifying the party (by their own choice), it's partly because it's unrealisitic that it's so reasonable. It gives depth to the character. PCs, like real people, have ambitions that will never be realized and goals that are impossible. In part, it's because Caine is both so noble and tragic that he draws my interest. It was much the same with Pez, who seemed so angry with the world yet had such a desire to protect it.

That reminds me. Did we ever find out/decide what Pez did to fall?

 

[JollyDoc]

If you read back to where Caine was first introduced, you will see that with each new party member he has met, he has asked them to take an oath never to harm a defenseless person. Some took it, and some didn't. He never tried to force them to. Also, as Lela mentioned, Jules is a familiar, not a slave, and he does indeed have a free will of his own. If Caine's life were in danger, Jules would not hesitate to kill in order to protect him. If you look at it in hindsight, from the point of view that Caine is Pez reborn, the vow of non-violence can be seen as a penance, in a sense to atone for Pez' violent ways. It is even more of an atonement for a pacifist to journey with killers, even if they are justified killers. Just as a paladin might adventure with those of different alignments and ethical bents, so might an apostle of peace, imo.

Pez originally fell because he was the trumpet archon who passed judement on Joachim when he made a bargain with a red dragon. Joachim was later sainted, and thus beyond accusation, so even though Pez was "just doing his job", atonement had to be made.

 

[LordVyreth]

If you read back to where Caine was first introduced, you will see that with each new party member he has met, he has asked them to take an oath never to harm a defenseless person. Some took it, and some didn't. He never tried to force them to. Also, as Lela mentioned, Jules is a familiar, not a slave, and he does indeed have a free will of his own. If Caine's life were in danger, Jules would not hesitate to kill in order to protect him. If you look at it in hindsight, from the point of view that Caine is Pez reborn, the vow of non-violence can be seen as a penance, in a sense to atone for Pez' violent ways. It is even more of an atonement for a pacifist to journey with killers, even if they are justified killers. Just as a paladin might adventure with those of different alignments and ethical bents, so might an apostle of peace, imo.

Pez originally fell because he was the trumpet archon who passed judement on Joachim when he made a bargain with a red dragon. Joachim was later sainted, and thus beyond accusation, so even though Pez was "just doing his job", atonement had to be made.

When did he get sainted? Was it in one of the Story Hours? And are we talking sainted or Sainted, as in the BoED overpowered template?