Jon Peterson: Does System Matter?

D&D historian Jon Peterson asks the question on his blog as he does a deep dive into how early tabletop RPG enthusiasts wrestled with the same thing.

Based around the concept that 'D&D can do anything, so why learn a new system?', the conversation examines whether the system itself affects the playstyle of those playing it. Some systems are custom-designed to create a certain atmosphere (see Dread's suspenseful Jenga-tower narrative game), and Call of Cthulhu certainly discourages the D&D style of play, despite a d20 version in early 2000s.

Does System Matter?

Dungeons & Dragons started out as a game with such an adaptable and open-ended set of rules that early adopters questioned whether any fur...

playingattheworld.blogspot.com

 

[TheSword]

It’s fascinating how the people claiming gritty sci-fi horror was impossible in 5e you fool. Are now only saying that a game representing Alien is impossible... and then only if you must include Star ships as PC tools, and only if you don’t use devices like simultaneous tasks.

Oh yeah, it’s not enough as well that 5e can do a rough job of this... it has to now do the best job.

... A far cry from an impossible task... no need to call John Wick.

 

[TheSword]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I thought Dark Heresy was a Warhammer offshoot. How does it relate to using 5e D&D to run an Alien scenario?

How is Alien now the standard that has been set? I just said gritty sci-fi horror. There are lots of examples of this.

 

[pemerton]

How is Alien now the standard that has been set? I just said gritty sci-fi horror. There are lots of examples of this.

You posted this:

A DM could give themselves the task of running a 5e adventure on the nostromo.

If you're now moving from Alien to Dark Heresy, how does that make a difference? Especially to my post that you responded to, which talked about splitting the party and techniques for managing that by exploiting a certain interface between fiction and table (ie separated PCs communicating via radio).

EDIT:
A more general point about this - I posted an actual-play analysis of what was needed to produce an Alien experience, and how elements of the system I used supported it, and how some stuff - especially splitting the party - came about without using the system as such or any particularly directed techniques.

I explained where I thought I had a more robust toolkit ready-to-hand than 5e D&D provides for this purpose.

So far the only way you've engaged in a concrete way with that is to say that you would force a party split via "simultaneous tasks". What happens if the players don't go along with that? And while the party is split, how do you handle the interaction of table dynamics, "party" play, and physical separation of the PCs?

So far all I'm seeing is that you can run the Nostromo as a dungeon crawl, with fighters and rogues re-badged as space marines and space truckers and with Aliens instead of gricks. Is that what you have in mind as a gritty futuristic sci-fi horror scenario?

 

[TheSword]

You posted this:

If you're now moving from Alien to Dark Heresy, how does that make a difference? Especially to my post that you responded to, which talked about splitting the party and techniques for managing that by exploiting a certain interface between fiction and table (ie separated PCs communicating via radio).

The nostromo was an example of a creepy gothic location for an adventure... nothing more. I never left Dark Heresy. I have repeatedly used it as an example in the last few pages of posts. I cited Harlocks Legacy as an easy campaign to convert.

I reject the claim made by @Ovinomancer that you have to have come up with an entire campaign setting to enjoy several months enjoyable themed gaming. As I said Harlocks Legacy would be very enjoyable way for our group to do it.

 

[Fenris-77]

I think someone might be seriously underestimating the importance of coms to sci fi horror scenarios.

 

[TheSword]

You posted this:

If you're now moving from Alien to Dark Heresy, how does that make a difference? Especially to my post that you responded to, which talked about splitting the party and techniques for managing that by exploiting a certain interface between fiction and table (ie separated PCs communicating via radio).

EDIT:
A more general point about this - I posted an actual-play analysis of what was needed to produce an Alien experience, and how elements of the system I used supported it, and how some stuff - especially splitting the party - came about without using the system as such or any particularly directed techniques.

I explained where I thought I had a more robust toolkit ready-to-hand than 5e D&D provides for this purpose.

So far the only way you've engaged in a concrete way with that is to say that you would force a party split via "simultaneous tasks". What happens if the players don't go along with that? And while the party is split, how do you handle the interaction of table dynamics, "party" play, and physical separation of the PCs?

So far all I'm seeing is that you can run the Nostromo as a dungeon crawl, with fighters and rogues re-badged as space marines and space truckers and with Aliens instead of gricks. Is that what you have in mind as a gritty futuristic sci-fi horror scenario?

I don’t need to conform to your (or anybody else’s) gate keeping of what a particular genre stands for. There are lots of ways of running an adventure. Your methods are... specific... and you don’t run games the way I do. Let’s leave it there. You expressed the idea that you struggled to split the party. I suggested time-bound simultaneous events or tasks. If you don’t like that, good for you. There’s no need to be snippy about it.

Incidentally, despite DMing three times a week for the last 12 months I haven’t ran a dungeon crawl in that period. They’re not my preferred type of adventure. Though I am due to run a conversion of Shards of Sin next week so I’ll get my practice in.

 

[turnip_farmer]

Is this supposed to be the argument that system doesn't matter, and will have no effect on the play experience?

No, everyone agreed that system matters 200 posts ago. I've got no idea what this thread is about any more.

 

[chaochou]

No, everyone agreed that system matters 200 posts ago. I've got no idea what this thread is about any more.

At this point, it's about taking D&D 5e.

Then ignoring everything the game gives you to play with - race, class, levelling up, weapons and armour, all the rules for spells, magic and magic items, equipment, background.

And then claiming that system doesn't matter.

 

[Aldarc]

At this point, it's about taking D&D 5e.

Then ignoring everything the game gives you to play with - race, class, levelling up, weapons and armour, all the rules for spells, magic and magic items, equipment, background.

And then claiming that system doesn't matter.

“All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what has the System ever done for us?”

“Brought peace.”

“Oh. Peace? Shut up!”

No, everyone agreed that system matters 200 posts ago. I've got no idea what this thread is about any more.

I think it's more that people say that "system matters" while also minimalizing its importance out of the other side of their mouth so they can have it both ways: it matters but also it doesn't (almost always when it involves D&D or its kin). And the argumentation that tries to minimize its importance or impact betrays a confusion about "system matters" that seems borne from the bias about one's favored system.

 

[billd91]

No, everyone agreed that system matters 200 posts ago. I've got no idea what this thread is about any more.

I think I do - it's a fight between two different views of "system", from what I can tell.
TheSword is looking at 5e as a system by looking at its chassis - 6 stats, checks are made on those stats modified by proficiency modifier, etc and asserting that system can be used for gritty sci fi like Alien by changing or reskinning the details that are hung on that chassis.
The people he is arguing with aren't separating chassis from details when looking at 5e as a system.