D&D 3E/3.5 Jonathan Tweet: Streamlining Third Edition

The D&D 3rd Ed project was part big-picture vision and part a collection of individual decisions about rules, terms, and characters. In terms of rules, a lot of what we did amounted to streamlining. We removed absolute limits in favor of consequences, removed unnecessary distinctions in favor of important ones, and eliminated extraneous rules. Many of these changes seemed drastic at the time because they eliminated rules that dated back to original D&D and its first rules supplement, Greyhawk. The D&D-playing audience, however, accepted them in stride.

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Some of the work to streamline the game had already been done in the Dungeons & Dragons line (“basic” D&D or “BECMI”), and some had been done with 2E. Basic D&D offered a unified table for ability modifiers and ditched separate damage values for human-size versus large ones. 2E ditched level limits by race, level names for classes, and the awkward term “magic-user.” Both versions of the game left out attack bonuses by weapon and Armor Class, as well as the possibility that a beginning character might randomly have a suite of game-breaking psionic powers. We maintained all these changes and took these efforts further.

One overriding goal was to remove limits wherever we could. I was fond of telling players that in the new edition you could eat rocks as your rations. The players would look at me in disbelief, and I would say, “You’ll break your teeth and starve to death, but there’s no rule against eating rocks.” Likewise, there was no rule against wizards wearing armor. It hurt spellcasting, but you could do it if you wanted to. Ryan Dancey would say the same thing more succinctly: “consequences, not restrictions.”

We got rid of class and multiclass restrictions by race. At Gen Con the year before 3E released, we showed a roomful of fans an illustration of a halforc paladin, and they cheered. We also removed ability minimums and maximums for races and minimums for classes. If you wanted to play a ranger with a low Constitution, OK, you just won’t be as tough as the typical ranger. If a wizard wants to swing a sword, OK, you’re just not as skilled with it as with a quarterstaff. Was it important to say that dwarves can’t have Dexterity scores of 18? No.

We removed differences between characters that mattered least so we could focus on distinctions that mattered most. Small characters got their foot speed increased so they could keep up better with humans-size characters. Darkvision was defined as not infrared so that it didn’t implicitly give some characters the hard-to-manage ability to see heat. Druids didn’t have to fight other druids to attain high level. Paladins could have any number of magic items. Multiclassing and dual classing became the same thing instead of two quite different systems. Earlier, D&D balanced wizards by making them weak at low level and powerful at high level, but we tried to balance the classes at both low level and high level. (We failed. Spellcasters were still too good at high level.) We put all classes on the same XP table for rising in level. The original system doubly punished wizards’ hit points by giving them a lower Hit Die per level and making them lower level at any given XP total. The system also sometimes gave clerics more hit points than fighters because a cleric would be higher level than a fighter with the same XP total.

For me it was particularly satisfying to eliminate extraneous rules. We ditched percentile Strength. A big surprise was how little complaining we heard about percentile Strength going away. The fighter with 18/100 Strength was something of a icon, but players accepted the change. Percentile Strength is a rule that you don’t see other RPGs copy, and that was a pretty good sign that it wasn’t doing much for the game.

You can say the same thing for weapons dealing more or less damage again large creatures than against human-sized targets, a rule that we dropped. Personally, I loved getting rid of weapon damage values that came with bonuses, using plain dice ranges instead. A damage range of 1d6+1 became 1d8, which is pretty much the same thing. That way, every bonus added to a damage roll was a bonus that came from something other than the base weapon type—a Strength bonus, a magical bonus, or something else special. Ranged weapons lost their rate of fire. I hated the way high-Strength characters in 2E liked throwing darts (rate of fire 3/1) so that they could get their Strength bonus on damage several times. Characters became proficient in all their classes’ weapons rather than a few, and weapon specialization went away. In 2E, specialization gave the character benefits to attack rate, attack rolls, and damage rolls—effects that multiplied together to more than double the character’s average damage.

We dropped the XP bonus that characters used to get for having high ability scores. In original D&D, the only thing that a high Strength did for your character was grant them an XP bonus if they were a fighter. Strength did not affect attacks or damage. In 3E, a high Strength score did plenty for a fighter, and the XP bonus was cut as extraneous.

We let players roll Hit Dice up to 20th level rather than making them stop at 9th or 10th. In original D&D, 9th or 10th level was a sort of maximum, with spellcasters not gaining an higher-level spells thereafter. Spells of 6th to 9th level were a later addition. The system we inherited, however, went up to 20th level, and we let Hit Dice scale up to match.

In 2E, sometimes players wanted high scores and low rolls, as with thief and ranger skills or nonweapon proficiencies. Sometimes players wanted low scores and high rolls, as with THAC0, saving throws, and Armor Class. We established a system where you wanted high scores and high rolls: attacks, saving throws, and skill checks. While we were at it, we streamlined and rationalized saving throws and offered a single initiative system rather than the several systems found in 2E.

D&D is popular in part because of its legacy, so we worried that fans would object to all these changes. Overall, however, the fans ate it up. Part of the reason that we got away with big changes is that we took pains to make the new edition really feel like D&D, but that’s a topic for another essay.
 
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Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish
Yeah I'm not convinced that's the best way.

Due to hp inflation and bad saves not scaling it's often better to avoid damage dealing spells past the early levels IMHO.
The bigger issue was always that damage became unnecessary, once you had spells that inflicted the Death condition directly. And even if the target was immune to Death effects, there were other ways to stop them that didn't require you to go through their HP
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
LFQW is solved, insofar as it was an issue.
You may be pleased with the current level of disparity created by LFQW, but it is still present a structural artifact of the class designs, whether you find it desireable, or others find it problematic enough to avoid high-level play for that and other systemic issues.
 
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Gadget

Adventurer
I will always appreciate the "unifying" (I prefer this over streamlining, as it was still a relatively complex game mechanically, just not as segregated into so many disparate systems), and smoothing things out overall.

However, I will always view it as also one of the most "broken" version of D&D by throwing wide the doors of restrictions and enshrining the "build" mentality of combinations of multiclassing (with prestige classes of course), feats, items & spells to become quite an monstrosity, making the so called "arms race" and "christmas tree" effect more pronounced than ever. Not to mention the excessive process simulationism the system engendered as well.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
ou may be pleased with the current level of disparity created by LFQW, but it is still present a structural artifact of the class designs, whether you find it desireable, or others find it problematic enough to avoid high-level play.

There is a difference between Classes, but no disparity. They are on par with each other, in terms of narrative contribution and being fun to play. I see no reports of people avoiding high level play because it breaks down, just starting over again because the stories wrap up.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
There is a difference between Classes, but no disparity. They are on par with each other, in terms of narrative contribution and being fun to play.
I'm not going to argue how you may feel about it - "difference" vs "disparity," here, is just a matter of connotation. Nor is it the only issue inherent in the system that contributes to less functional play at the lowest levels, and at higher levels.

One of the smart things 5e did was tune the exp progression to speed through those lowest levels, and extend play in that preferred mid-level sweet spot.

Preferred for story-based reasons, not gameplay related reasons.
To the extent that both are present and not extricable, an unsupportable assumption. You could opine that both might play a factor, of course. But we'd need to look at a circumstance where they weren't correlated.

There was one, of course, but it's so obscured by controversy I doubt it'd be useful.

Then again, what play has represented in the story sense, at different levels has arguably changed, some, over the decades. In 1e, it was assumed you'd become feudal land lords and organized crime bosses and cult leaders and the like, by double-digit levels. In 3e there was no such assumption, you continued as adventurers through all 20 levels.
There was no significant change in the lack of popularity of high level play.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I'm not going to argue how you may feel about it - "difference" vs "disparity" is just a matter of connotation - but the class designs are there to examine. LFQW is just part of the structure of those designs. It's not the only issue inherent in them that contributes to less functional play at the lowest levels, and at higher levels.

One of the smart things 5e did was tune the exp progression to speed through those lowest levels, and extend play in that preferred mid-level sweet spot.

One of the other things it has done is make the Fighter quadratic (number of attacks, Action surge, etc). Hence, LFQW is no longer a disparity in fact.

.
There was no significant change in the lack of popularity of high level play.

Yes, because there was a particular place people wanted to play: E6 speaks to this in terms of how popular it was as variant.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
One of the other things it has done is make the Fighter quadratic (number of attacks, Action surge, etc). Hence, LFQW is no longer a disparity in fact.
Nope. The fighter is, if anything, more linear than back in the day. The 1e fighter's attacks became more likely to hit as he leveled - much more likely, and improved faster than other classes, and topped out superior - and he (very slowly) got multiple attacks. BAB was similar in 3e, though iterative attacks were less of a multiplier than just full additional attacks.

The 5e fighter /does/ get full-bonus extra attacks (yay!), but, thanks to BA, his chance to hit relative to similar-level opponents does not go up much, nor does it advance any faster or higher than anyone else's. So, quite linear, if unsteady, primarily through Extra Attack.

Likewise, the Fighter's Action Surge stays the same for virtually his whole career.

Now, if Action Surge went from 1/short rest to 5/short rest, and gained radically in versatility as it did, y'might have a point.
But it doesn't.

Yes, because there was a particular place people wanted to play: E6 speaks to this in terms of how popular it was as variant.
OK, yes, E6 /was/ a change in how higher levels were regarded, in that play above 6th was recognized as problematic, rather than play above about 10th. And the point of E6 - the 'E' in E6 - was to continue to advance and enjoy 'Epic' play as you continue to gain feats (so an E6 character could get wild stuff like WWA).

If it was the stronghold-building & politicking story style of high-level 1e that had been putting people off, 3e abandoning that should have made high level /more/ popular.

OTOH, if it was LFQW & attendant caster dominance and playability breakdown that had made high-level play unpopular the whole time, then the whacktastic crazy-brokenness of CoDzilla and Tier 1 casters and Polymoprh shenanigans doing the same even sooner, would have hurt the accessibility of high level play even more.

The development of E6 is consistent with one of those.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
The 5e fighter /does/ get full-bonus extra attacks (yay!), but, thanks to BA, his chance to hit relative to similar-level opponents does not go up much, nor does it advance any faster or higher than anyone else's.

Having 8-32 chances to hit in a combat is a pretty big difference compared to 1-2, or 2-4 for other combat Classes.
 


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