D&D 3E/3.5 Jonathan Tweet: Streamlining Third Edition

The D&D 3rd Ed project was part big-picture vision and part a collection of individual decisions about rules, terms, and characters. In terms of rules, a lot of what we did amounted to streamlining.

The D&D 3rd Ed project was part big-picture vision and part a collection of individual decisions about rules, terms, and characters. In terms of rules, a lot of what we did amounted to streamlining. We removed absolute limits in favor of consequences, removed unnecessary distinctions in favor of important ones, and eliminated extraneous rules. Many of these changes seemed drastic at the time because they eliminated rules that dated back to original D&D and its first rules supplement, Greyhawk. The D&D-playing audience, however, accepted them in stride.

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Some of the work to streamline the game had already been done in the Dungeons & Dragons line (“basic” D&D or “BECMI”), and some had been done with 2E. Basic D&D offered a unified table for ability modifiers and ditched separate damage values for human-size versus large ones. 2E ditched level limits by race, level names for classes, and the awkward term “magic-user.” Both versions of the game left out attack bonuses by weapon and Armor Class, as well as the possibility that a beginning character might randomly have a suite of game-breaking psionic powers. We maintained all these changes and took these efforts further.

One overriding goal was to remove limits wherever we could. I was fond of telling players that in the new edition you could eat rocks as your rations. The players would look at me in disbelief, and I would say, “You’ll break your teeth and starve to death, but there’s no rule against eating rocks.” Likewise, there was no rule against wizards wearing armor. It hurt spellcasting, but you could do it if you wanted to. Ryan Dancey would say the same thing more succinctly: “consequences, not restrictions.”

We got rid of class and multiclass restrictions by race. At Gen Con the year before 3E released, we showed a roomful of fans an illustration of a halforc paladin, and they cheered. We also removed ability minimums and maximums for races and minimums for classes. If you wanted to play a ranger with a low Constitution, OK, you just won’t be as tough as the typical ranger. If a wizard wants to swing a sword, OK, you’re just not as skilled with it as with a quarterstaff. Was it important to say that dwarves can’t have Dexterity scores of 18? No.

We removed differences between characters that mattered least so we could focus on distinctions that mattered most. Small characters got their foot speed increased so they could keep up better with humans-size characters. Darkvision was defined as not infrared so that it didn’t implicitly give some characters the hard-to-manage ability to see heat. Druids didn’t have to fight other druids to attain high level. Paladins could have any number of magic items. Multiclassing and dual classing became the same thing instead of two quite different systems. Earlier, D&D balanced wizards by making them weak at low level and powerful at high level, but we tried to balance the classes at both low level and high level. (We failed. Spellcasters were still too good at high level.) We put all classes on the same XP table for rising in level. The original system doubly punished wizards’ hit points by giving them a lower Hit Die per level and making them lower level at any given XP total. The system also sometimes gave clerics more hit points than fighters because a cleric would be higher level than a fighter with the same XP total.

For me it was particularly satisfying to eliminate extraneous rules. We ditched percentile Strength. A big surprise was how little complaining we heard about percentile Strength going away. The fighter with 18/100 Strength was something of a icon, but players accepted the change. Percentile Strength is a rule that you don’t see other RPGs copy, and that was a pretty good sign that it wasn’t doing much for the game.

You can say the same thing for weapons dealing more or less damage again large creatures than against human-sized targets, a rule that we dropped. Personally, I loved getting rid of weapon damage values that came with bonuses, using plain dice ranges instead. A damage range of 1d6+1 became 1d8, which is pretty much the same thing. That way, every bonus added to a damage roll was a bonus that came from something other than the base weapon type—a Strength bonus, a magical bonus, or something else special. Ranged weapons lost their rate of fire. I hated the way high-Strength characters in 2E liked throwing darts (rate of fire 3/1) so that they could get their Strength bonus on damage several times. Characters became proficient in all their classes’ weapons rather than a few, and weapon specialization went away. In 2E, specialization gave the character benefits to attack rate, attack rolls, and damage rolls—effects that multiplied together to more than double the character’s average damage.

We dropped the XP bonus that characters used to get for having high ability scores. In original D&D, the only thing that a high Strength did for your character was grant them an XP bonus if they were a fighter. Strength did not affect attacks or damage. In 3E, a high Strength score did plenty for a fighter, and the XP bonus was cut as extraneous.

We let players roll Hit Dice up to 20th level rather than making them stop at 9th or 10th. In original D&D, 9th or 10th level was a sort of maximum, with spellcasters not gaining an higher-level spells thereafter. Spells of 6th to 9th level were a later addition. The system we inherited, however, went up to 20th level, and we let Hit Dice scale up to match.

In 2E, sometimes players wanted high scores and low rolls, as with thief and ranger skills or nonweapon proficiencies. Sometimes players wanted low scores and high rolls, as with THAC0, saving throws, and Armor Class. We established a system where you wanted high scores and high rolls: attacks, saving throws, and skill checks. While we were at it, we streamlined and rationalized saving throws and offered a single initiative system rather than the several systems found in 2E.

D&D is popular in part because of its legacy, so we worried that fans would object to all these changes. Overall, however, the fans ate it up. Part of the reason that we got away with big changes is that we took pains to make the new edition really feel like D&D, but that’s a topic for another essay.
 

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Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish
Gah I think the "Consequences not Restrictions" is the exact language I have been looking for when I talk about the problem I have with many newer RPGs. Seemingly arbitrary rules meant to speed up play also restricts choice.

removing the opinion words “seemingly arbitrary” gives one reason modern games do this. It’s much simpler and speeds up play. In fact, I might argue that this was the biggest mistake 3E made.

By allowing everything, it meant it was very easy to make a character that was less fun to build. Sure, you could play a wizard with 8 int, but you won’t have fun. The system was so full of those “consequences” that it played well to system mastery geeks, but was a pain for new players and add it necessary to understand exact;y how rules interact to make sure you ave a playably fun character.

modern games do not put the burden on the players; making them work out what is in the game’s sweet spot. Their rules make it much easier just to follow them naturally and build a decent character. To me, that is a huge win. I don’t want the game only to be cool for system mastery experts.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
I have been rereading OD&D.

Power level limits were a lot lower. Not many spells existed, hot points were low.

More I play 5E the more it's starting to annoy me. 5 years in though it's a good effort.

Definately leaning towards a lower power level.

We noticed the fighter beef very early in 3.0.

Went from awesome late 2E fighters to meh.

They revised the AD&D classes but didn't account for the buffs to spellcasters or changes to saving throws.

I think you might need to go back to OSR saves were you end up making them 75-95 % if the time.
 


I have been rereading OD&D.

Power level limits were a lot lower. Not many spells existed, hot points were low.

More I play 5E the more it's starting to annoy me. 5 years in though it's a good effort.

Definately leaning towards a lower power level.

We noticed the fighter beef very early in 3.0.

Went from awesome late 2E fighters to meh.

They revised the AD&D classes but didn't account for the buffs to spellcasters or changes to saving throws.

I think you might need to go back to OSR saves were you end up making them 75-95 % if the time.
One of the things 3.0 did - which is still with us - is make saves dependent on the ability of the spellcaster rather than the basic situation of the game world.
 



One consequence of the streamlining of D&D Tweet doesn't mention is that, for the first time in D&D, monsters, NPCs, and PCs all had the same stats. You now knew the strength of a gryphon frex. This is something that other rpgs such as RuneQuest had had since the late 70s. It made it possible to give class levels to monsters. @hong described this as the HERO-isation of D&D, which I think was apt, as everything in HERO (which was first published, as Champions, in 1981) also has the same stats. If 3e had gone further down the HERO path, spells would have been buildable from a variety of modifiers such as Area Effect rather than remaining as discrete packages.
The little known Green Ronin supplement True Sorcery (which is an adaptation of the Black Company magic system and not, despite what you would think from the name, a supplement for True20) provided a system like this - complex - but you could basically build and modify spell effects using those rules.
 

teitan

Legend
3E for me definitely hit all the notes of how we played anyway aside from using THAC0. We didn't use level limits for example or even class limits. For the first couple years it was great, I ran it just like I did when we played 2e. Even after adjusting a few months into it to the new rules I had no issues. The main issue with the game was that it wasn't DM friendly. It wanted to be, making monster work like characters was a great idea in theory but made things much more complicated in execution because of the moving parts of the system being so intertwined and templates being complicated to ensure you applied them right with levels and bonuses etc.

I used to hand blank character sheets to one of my players to make important NPCs because he was a damn good character maker and roleplayer, never using his knowledge to spoil it for the other players. He would smile when he knew what was coming and it was a real time saver but less than ideal.

I liked integrating minis into the game but I didn't like that it was so difficult to turn the option off with so many feats and abilities being tied to the use of minis or some sort of counter. It was great that they upped the tactical aspect but we saw that iterative attacks slowed the game to a slog at 8+ levels. As more feats and class options came in... it became a chore.

I initially loved prestige classes, I still think they are a great idea on one hand, giving the player control over the development of their character, especially when linked to multiclassing but I really missed being able to randomly drop something on a player. Example, I once had a cleric in 2e. The DM one night ran a session where I was killed and returned as a Revenant. I hadn't planned for that and it turned into an awesome campaign as I became this force of vengeance tearing through the countryside like Ghost Rider or The Crow hunting for my prey and avenging wrongs along the way. In 3e or 4e this was something that needed to be planned out or it could screw up someone's idea for a character. It was basically the same idea as applying a template but easier to do on the fly and handle. 3e kind of eliminated that surprise that could be pulled out by a DM because of expectations, not necessarily rules as written but rules as encouraged. 3e really took a lot away from the DM.

Multiclassing was a great idea but also why I think LFQW became even more pronounced because as archaic as it had become, the experience charts in older editions helped keep the wizard from eclipsing the fighter at a noticeable clip. With everyone leveling at the same rate the discrepancy in power between casters and non-casters became more obvious more quickly.

Escalating bonuses though with the linear nature of the D20 took the system into superhero land. When you do the math on older editions the D20 represents 5% increments and a -10 AC was the equivalent to a 30 AC in 3e, with the escalating bonuses that could be eclipsed. DCs also became meaningless at high levels for skills. The math didn't have a boundary. That's one of the things I like in 5e.

These are all why I never picked up Pathfinder or really played 4e. I think 3e was a GREAT example of D&D and a natural evolution of the game to catch up to the time period but the warts kind of ruined it for me around 2008.
 

At first my group had some objections switching from 2nd to 3rd edition, but once we did, we never looked back. 2nd edition was a rules mess. Very inconsistent, needlessly complicated, and that Thac0 system was awful.

To me (as stated above by another poster), 5th edition is 3e light. It is very similar in regards to the rules, but 5e has less rules. 3e however laid the foundation of D&D's new rulesystem. It's not perfect of course. There are serious balance issues with some of the prestige classes, and scaling up monsters is needlessly complicated. But I love that epic levels are a thing, despite the balance issues.
 

dwayne

Adventurer
I loved 3.5 with all the fixes and d20 was the best one with so much that was added into it at the time. %th is good, but is kind of too light really and feels too PC safe in that unless you are really trying to die you will not. The risk seems low and the penalties almost none, which makes the challenges kind of boring, i use many of the hard core rules in my game. I tell my player up front what to expect and that i am not going to interfere with a roll of a die good or bad. But always have one or two that cry's and i bottle their tears and drink them in, because i am the one who watches and the dice roller, the being in the shadow, the dungeon master HAHAH!!!! no really i let the dice lay how ever they are, and as long as something is reasonably with in the rules i let it stand.
 

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