Judgement For The Damned--Paladins, Vampires; What Price For Victory?

[Teflon Billy]

SHARK! You're back!

We assumed you ahd been deployed.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As Billy says, welcome back SHARK. Now, all we need is Bugaboo to start posting again and it'll be like the old days.

Ideally, I think Berenar and company would have opened up with anti-Undead magic before Archerrus could kill Julia. Then he'd have something to make him question the safety of sticking around to finish the job.

Some of the evil overlord list items work very well for the good guys too.

When the villain says, let me live or I will do some heinous deed, say "no" and shoot him.

On second thought, shoot him, and then say "no."

If you say "no" first, you might have the chance to kill him before he does the heinous deed.

 

[Dark Jezter]

D'oh! Saw this thread and thought that SHARK had returned, but then I saw the date of the original post. Too bad...

 

[Cheiromancer]

What do you mean? It's dated today. And besides, this is the second SHARK sighting I've logged in the last few days. Some other thread about fish, IIRC.

 

[Levitacus]

Right decision? Who's to say? The paladin's code is in tatters, though.

By your description I would say that he killed a helpless prisoner out of frustration, committed a chaotic evil act and should no longer be a paladin. He may be on the path to an alignment shift to LN or N. If he was going to judge the tiefling for blasphemy (you haven't mentioned what the tiefling did to justify this) he should have done it when the party captured her. In the situation it was just a transparent excuse to commit an act pretty much the same as the vampire had just done.

This does not necessarily hold. He may have the authority to dole out justice. He may be aware of the evil acts of the tiefling. Much also depends on the outlook of his god. If none of those hold then he's probably in for some atonement at a minimum though

Lev

 

[mmadsen]

Berenar gazed at Julia's bloody, limp body, before his eyes fell upon the Tiefling, Allanna. Berenar drew his sword and calmly walked over to Allanna, and simply stated "Your blasphemies bring a terrible reward!" before plunging his sword into her chest, and killing her.

As a leader in the holy war against the forces of evil, Berenar is "within his rights" to execute the hellspawn Allanna, but (a) I'm not sure that a swift execution with no interrogation and no ransom is the right tactical decision, and (b) his wrath-driven act of vengeance/justice is not very...Jedi. It may be a step toward the Dark Side, even if the end result -- killing a hellspawn -- is laudable.

 

[William Ronald]

WELCOME BACK, SHARK!!!

I think the answer to your questions depend in part on the paladin's code, his faith, and his understanding of it. Endur makes a similar point when he talks about how the paladin's order considers negotiations with creatures such as Acherus.

I think Berenar will feel guilt over not saving Julia, and should try to have her raised if possible. If not, the player may want to consider how Berenar will chose to honor her memory. Ideally, the party should have had means to have stopped the vampire before killing Julia. (There would have been nothing wrong with shooting the vampire in mid-speech, as this was apparently not a formal truce for a parley.) However, they may have lacked the resources to do so. Possibly the paladin's superiors could point out what they could have done in that situation. The question to ask is whether the paladin's faith considers the protection of the innocent or the punishment of the wicked to be a higher priority. Again, this can vary between deities or even orders following the same deity.

I find the killing of the tiefling cohort more troubling, as the paladin killed a helpless prisoner. I am uncertain of the cohorts blasphemy or the instruction of the paladin's god and order on the treatment of prisoners. I think it would have been better to have turned the prisoner over to the authorities, if possible. (Possibly interrogating the prisoner, with magic, might have revealed Archerus lair -- or given a few good clues for the party to work with.) If, by the paladin's code, the tiefling was considered irredeemable, then perhaps the execution was justified. However, I would argue that if the tiefling was considered potentially reedemable then the paladin may have to pay a higher price. Possibly, a tiefling who turned against the sort of evil Acherus represents might be one of the most useful allies a paladin could hope to have in the fight against evil. (Remember, sometimes former sinners make the best saints.)

A good dilemma in what sounds like a good game!

 

[mmadsen]

From what I know of SHARK's campaign, raising the dead is impossible, and paladins are the authorities. Those two points shape the argument substantially.

 

[William Ronald]

As a leader in the holy war against the forces of evil, Berenar is "within his rights" to execute the hellspawn Allanna, but (a) I'm not sure that a swift execution with no interrogation and no ransom is the right tactical decision, and (b) his wrath-driven act of vengeance/justice is not very...Jedi. It may be a step toward the Dark Side, even if the end result -- killing a hellspawn -- is laudable.

The road to hell is often paved with good intentions. Sometimes the greatest danger in fighting evil is NOT becoming like those you oppose.

Good points, mmadsen, but even legitimate authorities have rules to follow. So, part of this will depend on the rules. As for Julia, I believe that Berenar should find some way to make her death have meaning. He may well be haunted by his failure, but may gain a new resolve.

As for the tiefling, an interesting dilemma would be if there was someone once close to the tiefling whom the paladin would consider honorable. What if Alanna had a brother or someone close who is honorable, but thought that Berenar's actions were wrong.? If Berenar comes to regret his battlefield execution, then how would he react to an honorable challenge of someone avenging one's own kin -- even if he was opposing her as well? (If this sounds odd, read about the history of some of Europe's noble families to see how complex relations could get in a single family.)

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think I'd go a bit further than you. Whether or not he acted with honor depends upon what came before--if, for instance the tiefling had said, "wait, don't kill me, I know of a way to save Julia" and the paladin replied "fine, your life is rightly forfeit, but if you enable me to save Julia and defeat the vampire, you will keep your head. However, if Julia dies, you die," then it wouldn't seem dishonorable. But, if he had unconditionally promised the tiefling her life, then it is dishonorable regardless of what justification it might have. The only way to be sure would be to know what came before. (I would guess that there was some kind of deal like the one I suggest because I don't see much other reason to have shown the tiefling mercy up to that point).

I agree and disagree with parts of this. As for leaving his code in tatters, a harsh call. Did he act with honour? Questionable at the least.

However, in terms of alignment shift, a rush of blood to the head does not an evil or neutral character make. It may require atonement if it was judged a dishonourable act by his deity and order, but it does not seem to me to be an act of a Paladin burgeoning upon blackguard status.

My question: why did the Paladin wish to administer "justice" to the servant directly at that point? Why had it not been done before if such was the judgment made? Was the servant beyond redemption? As presented, it does seem a self serving act.

I don't know if the tiefling being beyond redemption is that relevant to the matter at hand. Redeeming true villains strikes me as either an imperfect duty on the part of a paladin (in which case, he should try to redeem some villains sometime but is not obligated to try to redeem every redeemable villain he comes across) or possibly as superogative (in which case, it would be especially virtuous to attempt, but even a person who never tried it could be virtuous). In either case, simply executing judgment rather than trying to redeem the tiefling would be acceptable for a virtuous person.

In terms of Julia however, the Paladin seems not to have acted dishonourably, he just failed. And plenty of Paldins have failed.

It's good to remember that. Most hero's will have lots of things they failed to do. (For instance, my character today failed to save a priestess's life from a wasting curse she contracted by being party to the destruction of an evil artifact. If he had not diluted his arcane might with fighting skill and had not crafted the items he has made, he might have been able to cast wish and save her. But a limited wish wasn't good enough so she died.