Judges Guild revival

[DangerDwarf]

I suspect this really boils down to a personal preference, rather than business decisions, and I hope that the financial end of it holds up well enough to make this project profitable enough to reach completion.

I may be overly optimistic but I honestly believe it will be. I believe many underestimate the so called "small-sliver".

Conventional RPG "wisdom" says there is no market for small modules.

Conventional RPG "wisdom" says that these niche markets are a no-go.

Sure, this is far from substantial market research but I've noticed that at Noble Knight Games that C&C titles which are:

A. Small page count modules
B. For a niche market product

are quite often listed in the "Most Popular" sidebar usually along with the hot new WotC titles. In fact, The Haunted Highlands hung there for the last several days until I bought the last copy they had in stock and it knocked it out, replacing it with a title they had in stock at the moment.

Considering how well the C&C modules seem to sell, I imagine that many crusaders will snatch up setting material quite eagerly.

 

[rebarton2]

Well, if you look back at the first page of this thread you will find several posts which say (in so many words) "Oh, it's C&C? Guess I won't be interested". That's what I was responding to. I don't want to get into flamewars, so I won't point fingers (and it wasn't Whizzbang or Dannyalcatraz). Nor was I accusing anyone else of anything. I was merely responding to some posters who seemed only interested in the setting's system, not its content.

Whizzbang makes good points about marketability - I happen to agree that James Mishler will probably not sell as many copies as he might have by making his edition C&C and not 3.5. He does talk a bit about his reasoning [I'm neither supporting it nor attacking it, merely reporting it] later in the NG thread.

Anyway, I take the existentialist position - it will either appear or not [I hope so]. Some people will buy it or not [I know I will]. People will be either happy with it or not [who knows?]. We can only wait and see.

[edit: I totally agree about personal preference. For instance, I've not been able to get into Eberron. I don't think it's bad, it's just not for me. Undoubtedly the revised JG will appeal to certain audiences (nostalgic ones, ones favoring S&S styles, ones looking for a new setting). Many others will say 'meh' and move on. To each his/her own.]

Geleg

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Thank you for that very constructive and insightful contribution.

And thanks in turn for your own.

I actually like the NG version of Wilderlands, and find this development rather more than annoying. While I may never run a campaign with the setting I do own it, and do not feel that I have wasted my money. While I do not yet own City State I also intend to get that when I can, which may well result in my running short campaigns in the setting.

Conversion from D20 to C&C is actually easier than the reverse - one is removing information (largely skills) while the other is reengineering the NPCs and monsters. The lack of a true skill system is my greatest problem with C&C, and why, after looking at the book at the store I put it back on the shelf - I do not feel enough of an urge to go back to old school character generation. I like having skills, and do not like using a cookie cutter to create my characters or NPCs.

So, I will not be purchasing this new version of an existing setting.

Is that more constructive and insightful?

The Auld Grump

 

[TheGM]

I'm actually pumped about the announcement, and for those who worry about sales, you should probably be aware that, like most smaller publishers, C&C commands a very loyal base. The market may be smaller, but they'll sell a higher percentage of copies IRT the available market.

I also hope that fans provide plenty of conversions, as I'm happy to play an abundance of systems (including 3.5), but my core system is C&C, so I'm glad to see it starting there.

Don.

 

[DangerDwarf]

I'm actually pumped about the announcement, and for those who worry about sales, you should probably be aware that, like most smaller publishers, C&C commands a very loyal base.

Good point. And I plead guilty. I know I've purchased more than one copy of several of their products (and 5 PHB's ) .

That aside, I'd be willing to bet that a small percentage of 1st edition players will pick up the C&C Wilderlands as well.

I'm really looking forward to seeing these products hit the shelf.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Dude- I hope they sell a copy to everyone who plays C&C- no ill-wisher I!

I'm just dissapointed that it won't be released for a system I already enjoy.

 

[Treebore]

And thanks in turn for your own.

I actually like the NG version of Wilderlands, and find this development rather more than annoying. While I may never run a campaign with the setting I do own it, and do not feel that I have wasted my money. While I do not yet own City State I also intend to get that when I can, which may well result in my running short campaigns in the setting.

Conversion from D20 to C&C is actually easier than the reverse - one is removing information (largely skills) while the other is reengineering the NPCs and monsters. The lack of a true skill system is my greatest problem with C&C, and why, after looking at the book at the store I put it back on the shelf - I do not feel enough of an urge to go back to old school character generation. I like having skills, and do not like using a cookie cutter to create my characters or NPCs.

So, I will not be purchasing this new version of an existing setting.

Is that more constructive and insightful?

The Auld Grump

IT is. You didn't "get" some things about C&C. It really doesn't matter unless you are burnt out on 3E and looking for something new. Which it doesn't sound like you are. If you ever do get burned out, check out C&C again. MAybe hang out on the boards a time or two.

As for the success of C&C? Well, even though the Trolls don't give out numbers of books sold, I do hear of how much money they have to do things. Stuff that did not happen prior to C&C. Very expensive things. Things they rolled over back into the product line to increase profitability of future C&C product. Frankly I wonder who convinced the Trolls of doing something that wise. I would suspect it is Peter.

Plus ENWorld definitely is not a good indicator of C&C's popularity. Someone posted a blog of a group who plays C&C a couple of months ago. I started searching out blogs and other "campaign" websites for C&C gamers. Counting the reported number of players per group I found there are thousands of C&C CK's and players. Wish there was a way to find out how many there are that never even come on the web.

So C&C may still be a small number compared to 3E, but we are growing.

 

[Turjan]

And a tiny sliver growing versus a the majority of the pie dwindling still boils down to a tiny sliver and a majority. It's not an edition war thing to be surprised that someone wants to have the sliver as their market.

I'm actually not sure whether you are right here. The original d20 print market - as in 3rd party material directly usable for D&D 3.5 - is already mostly dead. There isn't much left besides Goodman Games adventures and the more or less non-profit publications from Necromancer Games. You look at print runs that are often in the range of 1000 books. Then you have a few licensed publications from S&S, the remnants of Midnight, the new AEG setting (however it sells) and the farewell from Ptolus. That's about it.

In the light of print runs like that, producing stuff for C&C doesn't look like such a bad decision. It might even be that the tiny sliver is bigger than what is left of the majority. And keep in mind that I say this although I'm not really interested in C&C and, as a result, will most probably not look at the stuff from this announcement.

 

[Orcus]

I am psyched to hear about this!

(frankly, I didnt know anything about it)

JG has always been seperate from Necro. In fact, our agreement with JG to do JG stuff was never exclusive. Too many people have taken advantage of Bob over the years and we didnt want to be one of them. Bob could have done JG stuff with anyone he wanted while we were doing our stuff. And everything we made, we essentially gave all the copyright to him. It doesnt get any more respectful and friendly than that (hey, can we redo your stuff and we'll pay you to let us do it and whatever we make you will own the rights to, how about that?) We did it as a pure vanity product because Bill and I loved it soooo much. And we were thrilled and honored to work on them and to help with the revival of JG.

But continued support of JG was just something that Necro couldnt do. We arent JG after all.

So I am glad to see that JG content is going to keep going. And with James at the helm I am fairly confident these products will actually come out. JG has been a bit notorious for problematic fan-led movements that have fizzled out and gone nowhere (with more infighting and talking than actual writing), but James has always been one of the very few people who didnt just talk about doing JG, he actually did it. So I am cautiously optimistic. I shure hope this works out. I am really really happy for JG and James. And even for our TLG buddies. I prefer d20, but C&C is not a bad fit. And historically JG stuff has had its "unofficial" period where its stuff wasnt 100% D&D and the products still totally rocked. I expect the same from C&C versions of JG products.

Long live the Judges Guild!

Best of luck on this guys!!!!

Clark

 

[johnsemlak]

I'm actually not sure whether you are right here. The original d20 print market - as in 3rd party material directly usable for D&D 3.5 - is already mostly dead. There isn't much left besides Goodman Games adventures and the more or less non-profit publications from Necromancer Games. You look at print runs that are often in the range of 1000 books. Then you have a few licensed publications from S&S, the remnants of Midnight, the new AEG setting (however it sells) and the farewell from Ptolus. That's about it.

In the light of print runs like that, producing stuff for C&C doesn't look like such a bad decision. It might even be that the tiny sliver is bigger than what is left of the majority. And keep in mind that I say this although I'm not really interested in C&C and, as a result, will most probably not look at the stuff from this announcement.

This is an interesting point that deserves thought, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that, rather than the d20 market is dead, that the production of d20 material has died off? At least in theory, d20 material useable with (3.5 edition) has a much larger potential market than a system like Castles and Crusades. The problem seems to be that customers have become more discriminating of d20 products and possibly to the degree that they aren't viable products at all.

I still wonder though if it wouldn't be better to make JG stuff d20. The d20 label might not be a selling point in today's market, but the Judge's Guild brand might be. Dunno.