D&D 5E Just a thought about prestige classes.

[jrowland]

I was perusing my DMG last night and was thinking about Prestige Classes then today I notice this thread...

My thoughts last night were more along the lines of "Boons" as presented in the DMG. After reading this thread, I am thinking of the "Boundary Conditions" needed, and such:

1) Should cover all pillars of play: Roleplay, Exploration, Combat (crunch)
2) Should be easily "bolted on" without re-inventing the wheel.
3) Provide plenty of player choice points within DM "allowance"
4) add "background" benefits as befitting

As a rough idea:

Renown (faction) must be earned prior to "acceptance" into prestige "class" (roleplay Pillar)
Access to "Boon" and/or Feats has requirement of Renown levels
Renown can be internal (ie, no outside agency, but renown as piety, eg)
Boons gained when requirements met (renown, level, class, etc) (combat crunch pillar)
Feats gained as usual, with added requirements (renown, class, min level, etc) and can be "slightly better" for specific builds than normal feats. (combat Crunch Pillar)
Background traits (in this case Prestige Trait) should be on par with background traits and can be used as long as renown is maintained
Renown can be lost (not sure the DMG really touches on loses renown...memory foggy)
A location requirement is likely a good idea: You need to go to a temple, Mage school, sacred place, etc to enter prestige class or to learn feat, gain boon, etc. This encourages exploration. I'd keep it minimum (once you find the place, your good, but I can see a DM having new feats accessible at new locales)

I think a decent Prestige Class Feel can be built with that.

anyway, brainstorm pile of CP

 

[steeldragons]

Sorry busy day yesterday.

It's a basis for everything, story wise, that prestige classes are. Prestige classes started as membership in a prestigious/secret/mystical organization that included class abilities because no one is going to take levels in a class that doesn't give them anything. But if all you are looking for is a collection of, how did you put it in the multi-class thread, a collection of "kewl powerz" then it won't duplicate/create a prestige class.

I'd rather a prestige class be more what it was supposed to be. Membership in that special organization that has story impacts and isn't about what special abilities you can get for the build of the month.

First, again, I totally agree and would like for whatever mechanic the "Prestige" takes include the big story/in-game elements....I don't know about making it all about a specific "faction" or "organization" mostly because that is all campaign specific stuff. So, a "Harpy/Knight of Whatever/Member/Agent of <organization>" that is going to give you some NPC contacts/allies/interaction bonus and maybe some free/discounted supplies or accommodation (not to be snuffed at, in story, certainly) doesn't say "a class" to me.

My understanding (and it is plausible this is just me) of "prestige class" is that it is about, specifically, the "kewl powerz" [though I can say, with certainty, that I did not create that phrase/usage/spelling of the term].

I am curious about what you mean by ripping off material? Where are you saying the idea was taken from?

They are totally ripping off TSR's Planescape Factions, and integrating Ed Greenwood's original organizations and nations.

Which had precedent in Gary Gygax's organizations and national interests (Scarlet Brotherhood, Circle of Eight, national and self-interested groups) which are of course reminiscent of real life.

Those plagiarizing losers. 8)

The Organized Play factions are in the DMG as examples so home games can rip them off too.

It smacks me across the face as WoW [and I can only presume other MMOs] kind of mechanic. Though I have never played it, was there not something within World of Warcraft in which players align themselves with factions? I was sure I heard multiple reference over the years about "being a member of the such-and-such Alliance" and/or some other groups.

So, if Planescape did it first (which I also have no experience with and have never read a single bit of material) then that is mistaken. I did not realize the Planescape factions I've heard of was stuff for the players to actually be members of, granting them abilities. I just thought they were groups within the city that PCs could interact with/work for. But this organized play "pick a faction" thing definitely reeks, to me, of video gamey-ness. [Yes, I am well aware that isn't a "bad thing" to some people and others are great proponents of the alleged "evolution of game design." I am not one of those people and making a federal case out of it will not change that. So let's save us all a lot of aggravation and thread pages, ok? ]

But again, no matter where it came from, "factions" does not strike me as the best way to implement/duplicate what were "prestige classes." Specifically because they are campaign/setting specific. As I proposed, as a Feat (or some other way that does incorporate "generic/blank slate organizations") it could be taken by anyone (meeting the prereq's) with the story/in game elements of it being created whole hog by the DM [and/or player] themselves instead of being saddled with a bunch of pre-existing flavor and fluff that may not apply to a given table.

And, creating them as multi-step feats does what feats already do, which is give you some kewl powerz. SO from a "simplicity" angle, it means not having to create another suite of mechanics/optional subsystem. The optional subsystem is "Prestige [classes]Feats" which, if you are already using feats, works just fine. If you are not using feats, there is no reason you can't use these separate/ without normal feats...and none of it is setting specific. They can incorporate some kind of interaction bonus, shared skills, etc...

And hey, at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter to me how they're done. I am/was just trying to come up with an idea that seemed easy to give you class abilities (without creating an whole 'nother suite of classes) and simple to incorporate. If/when they come out, I will review the material/how it's done and decide if I want to add it into games/allow them as player options or not. They could very well do exactly as I'm proposing but then make the <prestige class equivalent> far too overpowered. Won't know til we see it.

 

[Ahrimon]

First, again, I totally agree and would like for whatever mechanic the "Prestige" takes include the big story/in-game elements....I don't know about making it all about a specific "faction" or "organization" mostly because that is all campaign specific stuff. So, a "Harpy/Knight of Whatever/Member/Agent of <organization>" that is going to give you some NPC contacts/allies/interaction bonus and maybe some free/discounted supplies or accommodation (not to be snuffed at, in story, certainly) doesn't say "a class" to me.

My understanding (and it is plausible this is just me) of "prestige class" is that it is about, specifically, the "kewl powerz" [though I can say, with certainty, that I did not create that phrase/usage/spelling of the term].

From what I remember from the 3.0 DMG prestige classes started out as more about the groups you belong to that come with mechanical benefits. I think over time they changed from story options with mechanic effects to collections of mechanics with a theme.

I'm sorry if I sounded snarky with the kewl powers. That phrase has become the best description of mechanical benefits for the sake of mechanical benefits to me. I know I did quote you on another thread using it, I've started to adopt it as just a phrase. So sorry again if I have offended.

It smacks me across the face as WoW [and I can only presume other MMOs] kind of mechanic. Though I have never played it, was there not something within World of Warcraft in which players align themselves with factions? I was sure I heard multiple reference over the years about "being a member of the such-and-such Alliance" and/or some other groups.

So, if Planescape did it first (which I also have no experience with and have never read a single bit of material) then that is mistaken. I did not realize the Planescape factions I've heard of was stuff for the players to actually be members of, granting them abilities. I just thought they were groups within the city that PCs could interact with/work for. But this organized play "pick a faction" thing definitely reeks, to me, of video gamey-ness. [Yes, I am well aware that isn't a "bad thing" to some people and others are great proponents of the alleged "evolution of game design." I am not one of those people and making a federal case out of it will not change that. So let's save us all a lot of aggravation and thread pages, ok? ]

I'll have to disagree here. Once WotC acquired TSR they acquired all of that material. Going through old material for good ideas is never a bad thing. Saying that they ripped off the old material for this could be applied to a lot of situations: Mind Flayers, the Temple of Elemental Evil, Elminster, Forgotten Realms, etc.

But again, no matter where it came from, "factions" does not strike me as the best way to implement/duplicate what were "prestige classes." Specifically because they are campaign/setting specific. As I proposed, as a Feat (or some other way that does incorporate "generic/blank slate organizations") it could be taken by anyone (meeting the prereq's) with the story/in game elements of it being created whole hog by the DM [and/or player] themselves instead of being saddled with a bunch of pre-existing flavor and fluff that may not apply to a given table.

And, creating them as multi-step feats does what feats already do, which is give you some kewl powerz. SO from a "simplicity" angle, it means not having to create another suite of mechanics/optional subsystem. The optional subsystem is "Prestige [classes]Feats" which, if you are already using feats, works just fine. If you are not using feats, there is no reason you can't use these separate/ without normal feats...and none of it is setting specific. They can incorporate some kind of interaction bonus, shared skills, etc...

And hey, at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter to me how they're done. I am/was just trying to come up with an idea that seemed easy to give you class abilities (without creating an whole 'nother suite of classes) and simple to incorporate. If/when they come out, I will review the material/how it's done and decide if I want to add it into games/allow them as player options or not. They could very well do exactly as I'm proposing but then make the <prestige class equivalent> far too overpowered. Won't know til we see it.

I'm totally cool with them doing it as feats as long as those feats are at least moderately balanced against the current feats and ability score raises. In the end, the one thing I don't want to see is a bunch of mini classes that are better than the base classes. Otherwise they just become the new standard. Why stay with class X when you can take prestige class Y and still gain all of the benefits of X.

 

[DammitVictor]

Rather than Prestige Classes, I would like if they would bring back Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies from 4e, that are at least partially class-independent.

 

[steeldragons]

I'm totally cool with them doing it as feats as long as those feats are at least moderately balanced against the current feats and ability score raises. In the end, the one thing I don't want to see is a bunch of mini classes that are better than the base classes. Otherwise they just become the new standard. Why stay with class X when you can take prestige class Y and still gain all of the benefits of X.

Absolutely agree.

 

[trentonjoe]

I was perusing my DMG last night and was thinking about Prestige Classes then today I notice this thread...

My thoughts last night were more along the lines of "Boons" as presented in the DMG. After reading this thread, I am thinking of the "Boundary Conditions" needed, and such:

1) Should cover all pillars of play: Roleplay, Exploration, Combat (crunch)
2) Should be easily "bolted on" without re-inventing the wheel.

4) add "background" benefits as befitting

I like the boon idea as well.

5E is so flexible with MC and Feats, I don't think you need to invent new mechanics.

I would think something like:

Holy Warrior of Torm

Requirements:

*9th level Character
* Must have 5 or more renown points (essentially completed 5 mission for the Church of Torm)
* Profiencient with shields

You gain the ability to grants Torm's blessing as a protective shield around yourself or one under your watch.



Once per long rest, the Holy Warrior of Torm can cast Shield of Faith as a 1st level spell on herself or her allies. All concentration checks are made with advantage to main this spell.

That's really more of a benefit to being in a faction than a 3E PC but IMO it accomplishes the same thing. Provides a neat mechanic with a character specific twist.

 

[Joe Liker]

It smacks me across the face as WoW [and I can only presume other MMOs] kind of mechanic. Though I have never played it, was there not something within World of Warcraft in which players align themselves with factions? I was sure I heard multiple reference over the years about "being a member of the such-and-such Alliance" and/or some other groups.

No offense intended, but you have some very strange ideas about what goes on in an MMO. (I'm sure you are proud that you don't know more, and I believe you are arguably better off not being tainted by such knowledge. But I'm about to taint you anyway.)

In WoW, your faction is not so much chosen as it is assigned to you based on your character's race. Up until Pandaria (a recent expansion) came along, there was zero opportunity for roleplaying before this decision was made, and there is no in-game, RP-driven way to change your mind once your faction is assigned. (You can purchase a race/faction change outside the game for real money.)

Faction is very much just a bit in a database that tells the system which side you are on in player-vs-player situations.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

There has been some talk, albeit very little, about prestige classes from wizards. The last thing I heard was that they weren't going to include them. That's fine but I was thinking about the Arcane Archer feat that got cut from the book. I really liked that concept alot, which brings me to my point. What do you think about replacing the Attribute score advancement(as regular feats do) with a set of feats that entail the prestige class?

*snip*

If you look at your 4th sentence...that's what you should be focusing on for creating your "prestige classes". You say you "...liked that concept alot...". But then you make the mistake, IMHO, of assuming that primarily mechanical combat-oriented bonuses will somehow give you that "concept". It won't. It will lead to a more combat-oriented "My Normal Class, but turned up to 11!", and all that flavour...all that potential "role-playing and exploration based pillar" will be lost.

I would HIGHLY suggest you try and make your version of prestige classes "balanced" from the three-tier aspect of the game. A couple of interesting and different (note that I said different...) combat nuggets make that third of the 5e pie interesting....not simply "yeah, that...but better!". For the RP third of the 5e pie, I'd DEFINITLY encourage a "you are invited" or "they will accept you as a student after you do X, Y and Z; not simply let the player "choose". It seems you are already leaning in this direction. Good for you! As for the last third of the pie, exploration, a mix of RP and mechanics seems to fit the bill for me. I'd look into creating a particular Skill that is only taught by the PrC guild/cabal/whatever. The skill shouldn't be simply a "one-up" of an existing skill; it should be something that gives the character something different he can do with it. For an example, perhaps the arcane archer could have a "Skill Focus" (lets call it) of "Perception (SF: Distance)" when he gets his first level of the PrC. This would let the character be a better judge of distance; "Any Perception skill check involving the need for accurate distance (distance to target, size of target, speed of target, etc.) is made at Advantage". Then, maybe a couple PrC levels later, add in "If a Perception (SF: Distance) check is made, the short range of the bow becomes the entire maximum distance of the bow". That gives a mechanical bonus (good), but doesn't really "add something completely new" to the game. The first part of that Skill Focus doesn't even do that...it just adds a 'bonus' to the Exploration aspect of the game (you can see at distance, 'better' than most others).

Anyway...if/when you get to the "spells into arrows", I'd work with the existing rules. I'd probably make the Arcane Archer have to "pre-cast" spells into arrows...using up their Spell Slots. I'd also make them have to attune to a particular bow, and any of their ensorcelled arrows would only be effective when shot with that bow by that Arcane Archer. That kind of thing. You don't want to make being an Arcane Archer "better" than being a regular bow specialist...you want to make them different and interesting. Basically, what you don't want is an Arcane Archer to be a mechanically better choice as far as "spellcasting" goes; if an Arcane Archer is upstaging the Wizard...you did something wrong.

Remember: "Here's another +1" = BAD.... ... "Heres something different you can do" = GOOD. All IMHO, of course.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I like the versatility of being able to open up a prestige class that I can take at any point (or not) after I meet the prereq. I prefere role playing prereq for most, but mechanical ones really need to make sense. (I understand needing to be a spell caster to improve spellcasting, or needing the mage slayer feat if the class improves on Mage slayer)

the "kewl powerz" [though I can say, with certainty, that I did not create that phrase/usage/spelling of the term].

It smacks me across the face as WoW [and I can only presume other MMOs] kind of mechanic.

video gamey-ness. [Yes, I am well aware that isn't a "bad thing" to some people and others are great proponents of the alleged "evolution of game design." I am not one of those people and making a federal case out of it will not change that. So let's save us all a lot of aggravation and thread pages, ok? ]

wow that is a lot of "One true wayism" and condescension in one post... how about instead of "Kewl powerz" you try maybe "New abilities" or instead of "Smacking you in the face of wow" and "Video gamey-ness" you try "Not my cup of tea"

And, creating them as multi-step feats does what feats already do, which is give you some (New Abilities). SO from a "simplicity" angle, it means not having to create another suite of mechanics/optional subsystem. The optional subsystem is "Prestige [classes]Feats" which, if you are already using feats, works just fine. If you are not using feats, there is no reason you can't use these separate/ without normal feats...and none of it is setting specific. They can incorporate some kind of interaction bonus, shared skills, etc...

I disagree on them working fine. I dislike the idea of feats because you already get so few and in some case far between.

example: I want to create a bladsinger feat that bridges full caster and martial skill... as a prestige class you could pick up once you have x spell casting and y martial ability at any time... or as a feat only when one of your multi classes gets feats (witch is already not that often).

example 2: lets say they create one of your prestige feats for arcane archer (they had one in the playtest) and 2 players want to play with it. one follows the fluff of the feat and takes and elven wizard to get there... at best (again no multi classing no upping stats) he gets it at 4th level... on the other hand the human variant player gets it at level 1.

 

[Riley37]

Legendary to be king is from both LOTR and Arthur... Once and Future king from the second. WInter Knight from Dresden, Mother of Dragons from SoIaF, and then there are the D&D ones I liked, Blade singer, Mystic theurge, Duelist, shadow dancer, and fate spiner.

Wait, did Arthur start as a Fighter and then take a level in the "King" prestige class? Does Conan eventually take levels in the same class and get the same ability? Does it have a CHA minimum?

Or are prestige classes an only-in-D&D thing? There's lots of interesting ideas which started in D&D, some of which have then been used in other fiction, and at this point there's interplay between the two. IMO, if a D&D concept inspires a well-written novel, then it's one of the better parts of started-in-RPG content. Elizabeth Moon's "Paksenarrion" stories aren't officially D&D; her conception of paladins is more like a prestige class. Do the Drizzt stories detail the process in which Drizzt pursued training in Dervish rather than Ranger, Fighter or Barbarian?

Also, can a Fate Spiner then take levels in Brent Spiner, and become an actor?