Just picked up the Expanded Psionics Handbook

[Staffan]

Some truly egregious Feats (like Inertial Armor) have been turned into Powers,

What was so bad about 3.0 inertial armor? Unless your character had a really bad Strength score, you would likely be better off just putting on a masterwork chain shirt worth about 400 gp. OK, you get a -1 penalty to attack rolls and all the stuff affected by armor (unless you're multiclassing), but on the other hand you can get enhancement bonuses with the armor, and you have 1 PP more to use, not to mention one more feat.

 

[Felon]

Any justification behind this bare value judgement?

Only the self-evident justification: that of all-things-being-equal, one class shouldn't have exclusive access to feats that occlude the strength of feats that other classes have access to just to make the class more appealing. Unless there is some mitigating factor, like the class being deficient in some other respect, that's a pretty clearly unbalanced design strategy. So you tell me, Psi: are psionic characters deficient in some respect? Do the more powerful feats compensate them for something that I've missed out on? Or do they get uber feats just for the heck of it?

Ah, but access to the feat is a class feature.

At best, that's just all the more reason to incorporate them into class features, not just make them an add-on that they can also take once every 3 levels. At worst, that's a weak reason to rationalize their power level. The Complete Warrior introduced feats that gave enhancements to a barbarian's rage and a ranger's favored enemy abilities, but their class-specificness wasn't used as a rationale to torque them up unduly.

Does is bother you that only a fighter can access the weapon specialization feat chain? Same thing with psionics. I think psionic feats are a great tool to express the different nature of psionic characters.

First and foremost, you should realize that fighters are unique in the respect that all they are is a pile of feats. That's their bread and butter, that's all they get. That's their mitigating factor, their deficiency, their grounds for compensation with a class-specific feat. The same cannot be said for any psionic character. The feats are gravy.

And even bearing that mind, Weapon Specialization is a pretty minor enhancement. Weighed against the damage bonuses other classes receive from their innate features, such as rage, smite, or sneak attack, the +2 damage from WS is a fighter patch. It keeps them in the running.

If you want the nature of psionicists to be different, that's fine. But the simple fact of the matter is, the nature of 3.0 psionic feats weren't just different, but better. Would you declare Weapon Specialization to be in the same league as Deep Impact?

this aspect actually seems seriously toned down to me in this book compared to the 3.0 PsiHB. Some truly egregious Feats (like Inertial Armor) have been turned into Powers, many others have been chilled out with Focus and the need to maintain or expend it

I hope you're right. I'm still not sure if I like the focus. I'm concerned that the need to buff makes a psi-fighter lopsided rather than balanced.

 

[Psion]

Only the self-evident justification: that of all-things-being-equal, one class shouldn't have exclusive access to feats that occlude the strength of feats that other classes have access to just to make the class more appealing. Unless there is some mitigating factor, like the class being deficient in some other respect, that's a pretty clearly unbalanced design strategy. So you tell me, Psi: are psionic characters deficient in some respect? Do the more powerful feats compensate them for something that I've missed out on? Or do they get uber feats just for the heck of it?[/b]

The mitigating factor is the requirement of the feat. Psychic focus. A psy war can't wade into combat and use psionic attack after psionic attack after psionic attack. He loses his focus. He also can't combine two feats that expend the focus, and lose access to feats that require the focus after they lost it, and can't easily regain it during combat.

In short, the feats aren't all that uber, as you claim.

Ah, but access to the feat is a class feature.

At best, that's just all the more reason to make them into class features.

No, it's not. Feats are a tool used to shape a class. To pile on lots of extra class features would make it so you had to water down the rest of the class. Using the resource pool of feats in a manner more in line with the capabilities of the psionic is a perfectly acceptable solution.

At worst, that's a weak reason to rationalize their power level. The Complete Warrior introduced feats that gave enhancements to a barbarian's rage and a ranger's favored enemy abilities, but their class-specificness wasn't used as a rationale to torque them up unduly.

I'm not seeing that they are "torqued up unduly."

(That said, that's a dangerous gambit, since I see feats in CW that are quite a bit of a balance concern. Fortunately, I think WotC did a better job on this one.)

First and foremost, you should realize that fighters are unique in the respect that all they are is a pile of feats. That's their bread and butter, that's all they get. That's their mitigating factor, their deficiency, their grounds for compensation with a class-specific feat. The same cannot be said for any psionic character. The feats are gravy.

Feh. They are a resource pool and can be manipulated to change the style of resources available to the psionic character. There is no reason not to. None.

 

[Felon]

Feh. They are a resource pool and can be manipulated to change the style of resources available to the psionic character. There is no reason not to. None.

As long as they're balanced, no there isn't.

To clarify, I'm not angry or upset that the 3.5e feats are too uber. Haven't had the opportunity to get the book for myself yet. Rather, from what I'm hearing I'm concerned that they may still reflect their 3.0 status, and worse still, join the ranks of BoED and PGtF in offering one special category of feats that are bigger and better than others, without a significant mitigating factor.

[EDIT] Just from the sound of it, the focus factor sounds lopsided. Characters that can rank anywhere between tissue to titanium depending on whether or not they've had a chance to buff are awkward. It certainly makes it rougher on the DM to know how to gauge an encounter if he has no idea whether or not the PC's will see an encounter coming or stumble headlong into it.

 

[Tratyn Runewind]

Hi again,

Posted by Staffan:
What was so bad about 3.0 inertial armor?

It was, in effect, Mage Armor with Permanency, available to first-level characters. Sure, it costs a Feat. So does Light Armor Proficiency, for a straight-up Psion. The Inertial Armor costs no money, works against incorporeal critters, is invisible, and can't be taken from the character. The "drawback"? Maintaining a 1-Power Point reserve, as though spellcasters and psionics didn't already hoard their last few Spells or Power Points for dire emergencies. Yes, psionic combat and other serious situations can expend a character's last Power Point, lowering the protection; the Mage Armor with Permanency, though, can be Dispelled, losing forever the XP sunk into it, wheras the Inertial Armor will be back again the next morning.

Posted by Felon:
all-things-being-equal, one class shouldn't have exclusive access to feats that occlude the strength of feats that other classes have access to just to make the class more appealing.

The fact is, the psionic Classes do not have "exclusive" access to the psionic Feats. Anyone with Power Points - meaning, the psionic Classes and anyone who takes the Wild Talent Feat, can take the psionic Feats. If it makes things easier for you, you can think of the situation as being equivalent to, psionic Feats are available to anyone with the Wild Talent Feat, and the psionic Classes have as a Class Feature the equivalent of Wild Talent as a bonus Feat.

By the way, I'm probably one of the few who is happy that the duration for the Domination Power has been reduced to "concentration". That was how it was back in the day, when there was no Domination Spell. Domination was turned into a Spell in 2nd Edition, apparently for the sole purpose of allowing non-psionic Mind Flayers (an idea I've never been thrilled about), though it also beefed up the then-new Wizard-subclass of Enchanter. Psionic Charm allows decent long-term control, with only the telepathic link really missing, and any Telepath worth his salt who can manifest long-term Charm can just link up at will with the Correspond Power, which is similar to an improved Sending Spell. Suitable psionic alteration of a subject's memories can also help make him more pliable over the long term.

Again, hope this helps!

 

[Felon]

It was, in effect, Mage Armor with Permanency, available to first-level characters. Sure, it costs a Feat. So does Light Armor Proficiency, for a straight-up Psion. The Inertial Armor costs no money, works against incorporeal critters, is invisible, and can't be taken from the character. The "drawback"? Maintaining a 1-Power Point reserve, as though spellcasters and psionics didn't already hoard their last few Spells or Power Points for dire emergencies. Yes, psionic combat and other serious situations can expend a character's last Power Point, lowering the protection; the Mage Armor with Permanency, though, can be Dispelled, losing forever the XP sunk into it, wheras the Inertial Armor will be back again the next morning.

Inertial armor is supposed to be a prime asset of githzerai. Do they still have that up as long as they remain conscious?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Only the self-evident justification: that of all-things-being-equal, one class shouldn't have exclusive access to feats that occlude the strength of feats that other classes have access to just to make the class more appealing. Unless there is some mitigating factor, like the class being deficient in some other respect, that's a pretty clearly unbalanced design strategy.

Out of interest, what do you think of the various divine feats? Exclusive to those classes which can use turning, and they can give some pretty supernatural bonuses. Not many people would rank clerics as being deficient in some respect either!

 

[Staffan]

It was, in effect, Mage Armor with Permanency, available to first-level characters. Sure, it costs a Feat. So does Light Armor Proficiency, for a straight-up Psion. The Inertial Armor costs no money, works against incorporeal critters, is invisible, and can't be taken from the character. The "drawback"? Maintaining a 1-Power Point reserve, as though spellcasters and psionics didn't already hoard their last few Spells or Power Points for dire emergencies. Yes, psionic combat and other serious situations can expend a character's last Power Point, lowering the protection; the Mage Armor with Permanency, though, can be Dispelled, losing forever the XP sunk into it, wheras the Inertial Armor will be back again the next morning.

Inertial Armor v3.0 has the disadvantage compared to a chain shirt that it can't be made better. If you're relying on Inertial Armor for your Armor bonus, the next step upward costs 25,000 gp and makes your feat investment worthless (bracers of armor +5). If you instead had chosen Light Armor proficiency, you could have gotten an armor bonus of +5 for 1,250 gp (a chain shirt +1), and can upgrade that further. Or you could use the feat for something else entirely, and either use a MW/magic chain shirt with a -1 to attacks or MW/magic studded leather and have no penalty at all.

That's what you should compare Inertial Armor to, not some hypothetical mage armor + permanency combo (which isn't allowed by the rules, BTW).

By the way, I'm probably one of the few who is happy that the duration for the Domination Power has been reduced to "concentration". That was how it was back in the day, when there was no Domination Spell.

I don't have a problem with Domination having a duration of Concentration, per se. It's psionic domination having a concentration duration and arcane domination lasting for days. If there's anything psionics should be better at than arcane magic, it's mind control.

Inertial armor is supposed to be a prime asset of githzerai. Do they still have that up as long as they remain conscious?

Not quite. They can now manifest inertial armor as a psi-like ability 3/day, with a manifester level equal to HD/2. Since it's a psi-like ability, it is assumed to be augmented as much as possible, which means they get more AC at higher levels (+1/4 HD), and it also has a duration of 1 h/manifester level (or 1 h/2 HD). So, in essence they get stronger inertial armor that lasts for less time (though at 16th level, they essentially have permanent inertial armor).

 

[kigmatzomat]

Inertial Armor v3.0 has the disadvantage compared to a chain shirt that it can't be made better. ...the next step upward costs 25,000 gp (bracers of armor +5). If you instead had chosen Light Armor proficiency, you could have gotten an armor bonus of +5 for 1,250 gp (a chain shirt +1) Or you could use the feat for something else entirely, and either use a MW/magic chain shirt with a -1 to attacks or MW/magic studded leather and have no penalty at all.

Yes, but those items can all be destroyed or taken and don't have all the same advantages. Maybe Inertial armor could be dispelled but it would come up again in 1 round while items shut down for d4 rounds. Inertial armor works against incorpeal even when wearing other armor so as long as you aren't using bracers, it's an advantage. It doesn't take an item slot. Inertial armor applies when doing things like taking a bath or at a social event where armor is gauche. I would probably wear +1 leather armor and use the dee

IA isn't an end-all-be-all solution, but it's never *bad* and almost never wasted.

 

[Felon]

Not quite. They can now manifest inertial armor as a psi-like ability 3/day, with a manifester level equal to HD/2. Since it's a psi-like ability, it is assumed to be augmented as much as possible, which means they get more AC at higher levels (+1/4 HD), and it also has a duration of 1 h/manifester level (or 1 h/2 HD). So, in essence they get stronger inertial armor that lasts for less time (though at 16th level, they essentially have permanent inertial armor).

OK, so is the base AC from Inertial Armor +4 then? If it starts at +1, then a +1 per 4 level progression kinda stinks, especially if their effective level is only half their character level.

Thanks for the info!