Just sort of rambling

[Greenfield]

Some of you may have read a story post that accidentally landed in this forum, the Curse of Darkness appendix about the Angel and the Devil discussing the fate of a PC's soul.

In that exchange (based on actual at-the-table play), a Devil proposed a wager on the man's fate. He suggested that both sides relinquish all claim, and agree to offer no temptation or aid from either side, "by agent or agency". They would then let the man live out his life in the "Hand's off" manner and see where his own behavior landed him in the end: Heaven or Hell.

The PC rightly rejected the wager, since making deals with a Devil is just a bad idea.

But it got me thinking. Part of the Devil's dirty trick embedded in there was that if the gods have to play hands off with the PC, offering no aid or guidance in any form, even indirectly ("Agent or agency" covers pretty much everything), it means he couldn't ever get a healing spell from a Cleric. Couldn't get advice from one, even without the casting of spells like Commune, etc.

So think about that for a moment: One person in the entire world who both Heaven and Hell have to turn a blind eye to. They can't help or oppose, except in the incidental manner of when he's in the area when something is happening.

Doesn't that sound like something? Like the main character for some work of fantasy fiction? There's so much you could do with that, all by itself.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Does all divine magic come from deity sources in your campaign world? Are there Paladins and Clerics of principles that could provide healing?

Does the advice of a Cleric, based on wisdom from the deific source, count as the deity's involvement?

 

[Greenfield]

Does all divine magic come from deity sources in your campaign world? Are there Paladins and Clerics of principles that could provide healing?

No, not in any world that includes Druids. And yes, Divine spell castters dedicated to an ideal rather than a deity would be outside the ban. So, for that matter, would Demons.

Does the advice of a Cleric, based on wisdom from the deific source, count as the deity's involvement?

The phrase "through neither agent nor agency" would cover advice from a cleric, even if it wasn't divinely inspired. The Cleric of any deity, even a dark one, is their agent, and the church hierarchy is their "agency". The wording was designed to be so broadly inclusive that even an Angel might trust a Devil not to have some way around it.

The character would have to get things like magical healing via someone like a Bard, or a Paladin or Cleric of a principle or ideal, or would have to buy potions and whatnot from someone other than a Cleric. Same for any other divine spells, and things like Augry and Commune. which contact a deific power directly would probably fail even for them.

Now, if someone threw a Bless or Prayer spell, and he happened to be in the area, it would probably slip by, since the caster doesn't actually have direct control over which allies in range get the benefit.

But leaving the crunchy bits aside, just the idea of such a character is intriguing. Like I said, he sounds like he ought to be the main protagonist in a fantasy tale.

 

[delericho]

Doesn't that sound like something? Like the main character for some work of fantasy fiction? There's so much you could do with that, all by itself.

Yeah, that sounds really cool, actually. Any thoughts on how you would model such a thing? A class, a prestige class, or something else?

 

[Greenfield]

In game terms? If it was a class, prestige class or feat-tree, it wouldn't be unique, and this guy is.

The situation was something that developed in game. I kind of told the story in the "Curse of Darkness" story I accidentally posted here, instead of the Story Hour forum.

The not-so-short form: In our game there was a tacit truce between Heaven and Hell, in that they had a common interest. The campaign was more of Law v Chaos than Good v Evil, and Hell is Lawful Evil, while most of Heaven is Lawful Good.

The PCs were champions of the Law's cause. One PC made a deal to save the life of a thief who had stolen a fancy spiked chain weapon from a Chain Devil. He offered 10% of his soul to have the man spared.

As the deal was being formalized, he asked for an addendum: He could call on the Devil for occasional aid, at a cost of 10% per service. The Devil agreed.

The first time the PC made the call, a 2nd PC asked if he could get in on the deal. The first PC spent 20% that day to save the party. The second paid to save himself.

By the time the campaign had ended, the second PC had made more deals, and owed the Devil a full 50%, plus a service, and the deals were always to beneifit himself and himself alone.

Foor some reason, Heaven took an interest in him, more than in the other PC who was in far worse trouble. Go figure. An Angel offered to "buy" the other half of the PC's soul, with the price being that he would have a Guardian Angel assigned. The Angel would be there to guard his soul, not his life. In essence, he got a slap on the back of his head every time he started to do something evil.

He hated that.

One of the very last scenes in the campaign was an attempt by the party to maneuver themselves out of these debts. Simply killing the Devil wouldn't do, since it's nearly impossible to permanently kill such a being, and even if they did, he had "heirs" ho would still collect. But they researched and realized that if he was dead, even temporarily, at the time when the final deal was to be completed, he'd default and be unable to collect. They formulated a plan and then, at just the right moment, forgot all the key elements and blew it.

The player was very unhappy to have his PC's fate left in the balance when the campaign ended. He wanted the matter resolved.

I offered to run a short scene, where he could influence (but not completely control) the role of his Guardian Angel, and I would of course play the Devil.

The Angel received a bit of an education, learning what a self-serving charge she had been saddled with. (He offered to trade his own first born child to Hell to avoid part of his debt.)

The Devil was actually satisfied with the arrangement: He'd have the PC's soul in Hell half the time, and as far as he was concerned they were simply meeting to discuss terms of the arrangement. Day and night, winter and some, alternating weeks and split the holidays, almost like divorcing parents talking about a child. But the Devil, not being completely satisfied with only half, and seeing an opportunity, made an offer. He would bet that he knew this mortal better than the Angel who had been with him for months.

The bet was simple: The Devil would relinquish all claim to the PC's soul. Even the service he owed would be forgiven. Further, neither he nor any agent of Hell "by agent or agency", would torment, tempt, harm, or in any way influence him for the rest of his life, even if he called upon them and asked. But Heaven had to make the same deal, and if either side ever violated the terms then they lost. The Devil was betting that the PC, left to his own devices, would end up going to Hell anyway. If he did, the Devil got him for his personal property (as opposed to going into the general population). If, on the other hand, the PC managed to earn his way into Heaven, then the Guardian Angel would get all the credit, earned by her pure faith in the mortal's resolve.

In our scenario, the player got to decide. He finally smartened up though, and realized that it is never a good idea to make a deal with a Devil. He didn't know what the Gotcha was, but he knew that there always was one.

So our mythical protagonist, the one that neither Heaven nor Hell could touch, was my thought on what might have happened had the player taken the deal. It didn't matter what class, race, alignment or feats the PC had, it was a unique conspiracy of circumstance, and the logical/dramatic results thereof.

Like I said, there's a story there, waiting to be told.

 

[Celebrim]

I personally think the devil was making a bad deal - for himself and not the one offered - and the main problem I see with it is that I had to have been lying, since he seemed to be offering what was beyond his authority to deal in.

Not all gods are good. Indeed, one might argue that in your average D&D campaign even the 'good' gods are as capricious, foolish, short-sighted, vain, and cruel as the Greek and Norse gods they tend to be inspired by. (Actually, this is probably more the result that the mortals pretending to be those gods have all those flaws...)

More or les, if it is true that "and agree to offer no temptation or aid from either side, "by agent or agency", then surely you are offering not much less than immunity to divine magic. Yes, cure spells would be off the table but if absolute non-interference is what is offered presumably so is bestow curse and harm. Having all the gods in the world turn a blind eye to you... well, let's just say the BBEG in my current campaign would gladly sell half his soul for that and think it a boon and not a curse, much less merely wager it. Indeed, if the BBEG really could get an agreement of the gods and their agents to stay out of all of his affairs, he'd almost certainly end up ruling the world. Without divine aid, there is only one person in the whole world that could probably stop him, and that person wouldn't - in fact, he'd probably join forces. As such, it would amount to a concession by all the gods, devils, and so forth to relinquish all the world to him to be his sole possession eternally.

Now, maybe you could wiggle in a loop hole and say that all sides could curse the person but not aid him, but without actually rereading your story post, if the gods really agreed to step aside and let someone live his life, and that if both Heaven and Hell turned a blind eye to him, that's power of almost unfathomable degree.

 

[Greenfield]

Yes and no.

The Chain Devil doesn't rule Hell, and his promise, while made in earnest, doesn't actually bind anyone but himself and his agents.

Similarly, the Angel isn't a deity, and since Heaven isn't ruled by any single power, even if she were her word wouldn't bind all divine forces.

If either side interferes then they lose the bet, but in the big picture it's just one soul.

Further, you're making a presumption that the PC could in fact rule the world, that he could gather enough temporal power to overcome all mortal resistance.

True the gods can't send someone to stop him, but any mortal ruler who can read the writing on the wall is certainly free to send an army, or an adventuring team, to do exactly that. The simple fact is that all but a very few of the "Big Bad" types in the world fail not because of divine or infernal interference, but simply because the world at large won't put up with their crap for very long.

And to be clear, navigating the policies and powers that be above and below may be a frightening prospect, but tip-toeing through mortal politics can make Divine and/or Infernal dealings look like child's play.

The simple fact is that most people in the world go their entire lives without Infernal contact of any sort, and little Divine contact above and beyond the weekly sermons they fail to sleep through. Somehow, such people aren't all contenders for Emperor of the World.

My point wasn't, however, that this would be a good character to play or DM, or even one that could be played in a game. Rather, the idea of such a person is intriguing, and would make an interesting foundation for a paperback-style fantasy.

I come across these ideas once in a while. I just wanted to share this one.

Have you had any such developments in your games? Situations that would be fun to explore in a story?