Just to clear the air, 4th edtion has been out for a few years now.

[egomann]

I really don't think I can express how much I utterly hate the skill system. Arrggghhh!!!!

It's better than NWP's.


Actually what do you hate about it? The organization, or lack therof? The Skills themselves? The sheer number of often redundant skills?

 

[MerricB]

It's better than NWP's.


Actually what do you hate about it? The organization, or lack therof? The Skills themselves? The sheer number of often redundant skills?

None of those. Well, I don't like them as part of a serious game, but they're Hackmaster enough to be very amusing.

No, it's the percentile system and the system for improving them. What I find interesting about all of this is that before 3e, I would have *loved* Hackmaster skills. You can improve them! You can train them! (A few fond memories of RuneQuest sessions expanded into something greater).

However, 3e has a skill system that, in addition to being elegant, is also useful as a tool for the DM designing encounters.

The elegance reasons come down to opposed uses of skills (much easier with opposed d20+modifiers rolls) and changing difficulty.

The tool reasons are due to the linking of maximum skill ranks in 3e to level. In a skill someone considers important (and generally that's a decision made with knowledge of the DM's style and the game environment), you can assume that they've got a bonus of at least Level+3. You can make assumptions based on that in your design to make the use of skills a part of challenge resolution.

That's not present in Hackmaster. The actual levels in skills can be wildly variant from the actual level of the PC. As a result, it's very hard to include skill use as part of an adventure. They become little tricks the PCs can use, but they never grow to become integral to an adventure unless the DM intentionally makes them so knowing the PC's skills in advance... something that can't happen from published adventures.

Now, I may be misinterpreting how skills are used in Hackmaster here. (I certainly don't have the play experience!)

Are you familiar with the Player's Option: Skills & Powers book from 2e? Hackmaster's character creation system is based on it, although the NWP system it used is much closer to 3e than HM. (I consider a big advancement of 3e was to make the actual skill lis be of skills useful to adventuring, rather than "nothing" skills like "Cooking" - although those type of skills are subsumed in the Profession and Craft skills).

Cheers!

 

[egomann]

Well, in HM you improve the skills by Using them or by Training for them in school.

If you Use a skill sucessfully and roll in percentile under your chance to improve skill (determined by WIS) then the next time you train you get a free % point added above and beyond what you would get from training.

As far as Max skill levels, you could not do that in HM because in HM most everyone does NOT have levels. There are no Experts, Commoners, Nobles, etc.... The only people with levels are Adventurers and the like.

And I think that having skills play a key part in adventures is often used as an excuse to not roleplay. I am not talking about you or any game in particular, but if all you have to do is make your Persuade/Diplomacy/Bluff check in order to get things done, that eliminates the need to role play the experience. I am not by any means saying that all 3E games operate like that, but I am saying the rules allow for it.

I make opposed skill checks all the time. PC rolls and I roll for the NPC. Whoever makes their skill check by the most wins.

 

[MerricB]

And I think that having skills play a key part in adventures is often used as an excuse to not roleplay. I am not talking about you or any game in particular, but if all you have to do is make your Persuade/Diplomacy/Bluff check in order to get things done, that eliminates the need to role play the experience. I am not by any means saying that all 3E games operate like that, but I am saying the rules allow for it.

I understand the feeling very well. Yes, it's a concern (and something that needs to be addressed by better examples of using the interactive skills).

I make opposed skill checks all the time. PC rolls and I roll for the NPC. Whoever makes their skill check by the most wins.

Yes, it can be done - it's just not quite as elegant.

Cheers!

 

[diaglo]

And there are some folks whom I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire. Your point?

edited. but still agreeing.

 

[Eridanis]

WHOA! Enough of that. Please keep the discussion to the topic, and not on the posters.

 

[egomann]

Yes, it can be done - it's just not quite as elegant.

Elegance is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[diaglo]

Elegance is in the eyes of the beholder.

fixxed it fer ya.

that main eye is closed most of the time so it can use all the other ones.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I like "(2+i)th edition", but I think that would fly over the heads of most people here...

I doubt it would. That's a fine description.