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Justifying high level 'guards', 'pirates', 'soldiers', 'assassins', etc.

Irda Ranger

First Post
Personally I don't get any satisfaction from my PC's stats growing more complex - that makes them harder to run, which takes more brain-power, which for me quickly becomes a disincentive not an incentive. Deciding how much to Power Attack in 3e is about as much mechanical complexity as I want to deal with.
The only change I would make to this sentence is that Power Attack in 3e is more complex than I want to deal with. I don't like constantly recalculating odds in my head, which is why I don't play poker.


Actually I think this is a big reason why I have struggled to 'get into' 4e. If it's predicated on the notion that increasing PC mechanical complexity is good, and I think it's bad, then me and the game clearly have a major disagreement.
FWIW, I think 4E is less complex than 3E. Replacing less powerful powers with more powerful ones reduces complexity a lot. Complexity does increase, but less than linearly, and the baseline is lower than 3E (IMO).
 

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Delta

First Post
That my hill giants have 8 hit dice, attack +8 and do 2d6+7 damage and are CR 4 instead of CR 7 isn'y rewriting the core... If Skip Williams as author of the 3e Monster Manual was the man responsible, he screwed up badly I think.

And of course some of us would be happy to say you're returning to the actual core since you're recreating OD&D/1E hit dice and attack levels for giants. :)

The real screwup happened in the 2E MM when they boosted the hit dice levels originally (whoever that was). 3E did overlook fixing that (when they had Con bonuses to compensate).
 

GlaziusF

First Post
So does everyone else in 4E. Consistent ingame explanations for HP and dmg are flat out against the rules.

What? Why?

Damage represents shock. Not the electrical kind, the socked-in-the-heart-with-a-boxing-glove kind. Hit points are your capacity to absorb shock and stay conscious. Generally you can shake off shock if you can sit down and rest for a few minutes, but sometimes there's just not enough left in the tank and you need to sleep. At half hit points you begin to show signs of wear, at zero you pass out and will likely go comatose without help. At negative half hit points you've been too badly beaten to regain consciousness unaided, and if you're there or comatose you're also beyond the reach of most conventional healing, unless it happened very recently. You need ritual healing to get you up and running again.

How you paint this on yourself depends on your character - a ranger who only takes bruises and scrapes and even the shot that knocks him out leaves him wondering why his legs stopped working, a paladin whose muscles tear and bones break but is knit back together with divine energy, a warlock who is little more than a spindly husk surrounded by an aura of blue-black flame that flares to repulse blows but gutters and dies....

You can create the explanation you like that is consistent within your character. If you want to enforce a whole-world model, you can probably do that, too, perhaps segregating obvious exceptions like undead and oozes.

Irda Ranger said:
The distinguishing characteristic is that simulationists recognize rules like "city guards are between 1st and 4th level" and narrativists don't. For a narrativist a city guard is whatever level he needs to be to advance the plot (within reason).

But for the simulationist a city guard is whatever level he needs to be to advance the plot, as well. It's just that there are some plots that city guards could not be called on to advance.

Irda Ranger said:
However, we have gotten very far afield. My main point of argument is that if you give a player a +1 to attack, it should mean something. In all previous editions of D&D it meant (1) old foes were more easily bested and (2) new more powerful foes can be challenged. However by simply scaling old foes up with player advancement (even if at "a reduced scale") you are taking away reward number one. To quote S'mon, "Where's the cookie?"

And by scaling more powerful foes down to compensate for inadequate player advancement, you're taking away reward number 2.

But this is about more than just number scaling. Number scaling falls apart after about 5 levels, and the DMG reflects this. This is about role scaling.

Consider the salamander lancer, a level 14 brute worth 1000 XP with 170 hit points. It can stab with its long lance, push with a tail slap, or produce a whirlwind of flame as a long-recharge power. Here's what might happen if a DM wanted to feature this monster in a 4E campaign, perhaps as the iconic servant of a demon prince or somesuch.

For a level 4 or 5 party, the lancer can be reconcepted into a "final boss", perhaps the product of a summoning ritual designed to devastate the countryside. It's a level 5 solo brute worth 1000 XP, with about 300 hit points and lower defenses. In any given turn it can stab twice with its lance and make a tail slap as an immediate reaction against a melee attack. It's surrounded by an aura of flame and flings its whirlwind out every other turn, and immediately when the PCs first wound it.

For a level 10 party, it can be reconcepted into a "lieutenant", a powerful presence among a hidden sect of cultists. It's a level 10 elite brute worth 1000 XP, with about 250 hit points and slightly lower defenses. In a given turn it can stab or slap, but not both, though it still gets the tail-slap as an immediate reaction, but only on a miss. It may have an aura of flames, but the aura doesn't deal damage, and the whirlwind only comes out every three turns, though it does immediately recharge when the lancer is bloodied.

For a level 14 party it's a run-of-the-mill monster, part of a typical resistance the PCs might face trying to rescue an artifact from the Elemental Chaos. It's a level 14 brute worth 1000 XP with 170 hit points and standard defenses. The whirlwind of flame may come out once in the encounter.

For a level 22 party it can be reconcepted into a "minion", part of a mass of servitors that surround the demon prince for the party's final showdown with him. It's a level 22 minion worth about 1000 XP, and one solid hit will put it away but it has higher defenses. It can stab or lob a bolt of flame, both for relatively minor damage.

Why have it gain and lose attacks, or gain and lose hit points, or gain and lose defenses? Think of it as a quick abstraction on top of a deeper simulation. In the simulation, damage isn't binary. It's a continuum, based on the base damage of the power and base defense of the enemy, that increases with a higher attack roll. You can do things like make multiple attacks per round at a penalty, ready a reactive attack at a penalty, or have an ability that charges up from round to round and can be released whenever.

To help the simulation resolve faster, some assumptions are made. Binary hits and misses show up - the hits do random damage somewhere in the hit range, the misses would do damage but not enough to be worth keeping track of. The extra abilities the salamander gets at a lower level are models of choices it could make to distribute its attack power and charged power differently. The higher hit points but lower defenses model a lowering of the "it matters" threshhold on the damage continuum. At a higher level, the salamander does small but constant damage because that's all that makes it over the "it matters" threshhold - and the same with it dying to one solid hit, since four misses in the abstraction might well kill it in the simulation, but that's just too much bookkeeping.

In effect you are fighting the same simulated monster as a solo, elite, normal, and minion version, but it's allocating its powers differently and its hit points and defenses scale so you don't have to recompute your damage roll.

If we actually had the underlying simulation system, things could happen a bit differently, of course. I wouldn't just have to ad hoc what the salamander could do at solo and elite level, I could compute it directly, more or less. But ultimately that's something I'd need a computer for to prep ahead of time, instead of something I can sketch up with a pencil and paper in the coffee shop on my lunch break, or tweak slightly in Notepad.
 

SPoD

First Post
The answer to the opening post is simple: Poor self-esteem.

Our young NPCs feel so much pressure to live up to the glamorous images they see in the rulebooks of heroic PCs that they come to see themselves as ugly and worthless, fit only for guard duty even at 15th level. It's a tragic commentary on the stresses of modern medieval life.
 

Irda Ranger

First Post
What? Why?

Damage represents shock.
That's not what the PHB says. It's a combo of skill, endurance, physical damage, luck, etc., etc. It's not any one thing. And since HP aren't any one thing, Damage isn't any one thing either.



But for the simulationist a city guard is whatever level he needs to be to advance the plot, as well.
Um, no. The guard is whatever level "makes sense" from within the context of the presented game world. There is no plot in a Sim game (ever played Sim City?), so plot has nothing to do with it.


And by scaling more powerful foes down to compensate for inadequate player advancement, you're taking away reward number 2.
To an extent, yes, but take that up with Pemerton. I'm not advocating this play style, he is. I wouldn't mind playing in this "flatter curve" D&D, but I'm also fine with it just the way it is.


But this is about more than just number scaling. Number scaling falls apart after about 5 levels, and the DMG reflects this. This is about role scaling.

Consider the salamander lancer, ... <snip>

In effect you are fighting the same simulated monster as a solo, elite, normal, and minion version, but it's allocating its powers differently and its hit points and defenses scale so you don't have to recompute your damage roll.
Recompute the damage roll? Now who's taking away the cookies?

Changing the creatures stats to "scale" it to the PCs is the same thing as rewriting their character sheet to take back the gains of leveling. If you don't want PCs to outgrow monsters don't give them +x to attacks and defenses when they level up. You're doing exactly what I suggested pemerton do, except that rather than not giving the PCs a bonus for leveling you're instead giving it to them and an equal offsetting bonus to their opponents. What is the point of that? Why the sham? If you want a flatter curve D&D just advance all checks at +1/4, or +1/5, or +0; whatever rate makes you happy.
 

Korgoth

First Post
The answer to the opening post is simple: Poor self-esteem.

Our young NPCs feel so much pressure to live up to the glamorous images they see in the rulebooks of heroic PCs that they come to see themselves as ugly and worthless, fit only for guard duty even at 15th level. It's a tragic commentary on the stresses of modern medieval life.

Magnar the Acceptable: You know, Trudor, I'm not feeling at all heroic.
Trudor the Fairly OK: For running from the Dire Tarrasque? I think that was a smart move.
Jabin the Average: I hate to point this out, but it was a fair encounter.
Murtir the Passable: You call that fair? A Dire Tarrasque? We're only 15th level.
Jabin: Yes, but there are forty of us.
Yadra of the Belle Curve: It would have killed at least half of us.
Magnar: Right but now it's killing a *whole* country.
Trudor: I say that's none of our concern. I don't know about you, but I'm Chaotic Good.
Murtir: You know, that really is sort of a cop-out alignment.
Trudor: Yeah, well you should know because you're Chaotic Good as well.
Jabin: I think we all just became Chaotic Neutral.
Yadra: What's with this "became"? I'm in this for the gold.
Magnar: So what do you suggest... we become farmers?
Yadra: Farmers? I said I'm in it for the *gold*. The last farmer I saw near any gold was a corpse in Killuthar's lair.
Jabin: We really should have had a go at that dragon.
Trudor: OK, I'll bite, Yadra... now that the realm of Inoffensiva has been destroyed by the Dire Tarrasque, where do you suggest that we seek this gold?
Yadra: Well, are any of you up for some hard, dangerous work?
Trudor: Of course we're not. Cut the rhetorical questions.
Yadra: Fine. Piracy.
Murtir: Piracy? Isn't that illegal?
Yadra: On the high seas, the only law is the cutlass.
Murtir: Really? I just missed my Knowledge: Jurisprudence check.
Yadra: Trust me. And don't bother with Sense Motive. My Bluff is maxed.
Murtir: Works for me.
Jabin: Aren't there fearsome sea monsters?
Yadra: Nothing like a Dire Tarrasque, that's for sure.
Jabin: Sold.
Yadra: Good. We've got enough mid-tier paragons to crew up two or three fast vessels. It's easy pickings from here on out, boys!
 

GlaziusF

First Post
That's not what the PHB says. It's a combo of skill, endurance, physical damage, luck, etc., etc. It's not any one thing. And since HP aren't any one thing, Damage isn't any one thing either.

Those are ways you can model shock and your character's ability to recover from it.

Actually, maybe shock is the wrong word there. The term I'm looking for I don't believe actually exists in English or maybe even language, but there's an adjective, and it is "sudden". Damage is "a suddenness", which does not destroy you on a fundamental level but can overwhelm you.

Irda Ranger said:
Um, no. The guard is whatever level "makes sense" from within the context of the presented game world. There is no plot in a Sim game (ever played Sim City?), so plot has nothing to do with it.

Every Sim City game is the story of a city and how it grew. Everybody playing Sim City, unless they have fundamental brain damage, is making up their own story in their own head about their city and how it is growing.

This is because they are human, and humans make up stories about everything. It's what they do. There is no practical difference between a narrativist who for consistency's sake decides a city guard is not a credible participant in a story and a simulationist who runs the numbers and decides a city guard could not be a credible participant.

Recompute the damage roll? Now who's taking away the cookies?

Just to make sure we're on the same page, this is still in reference to using the "same monster" as a solo, elite, normal, and minion-class enemy, right? Not scaling the same enemy up or down a few levels to account for plausibly stronger and weaker versions?

Remember, in the "underlying simulation" there is no binary hit or miss. You deal damage based on the end result of your attack roll, after factoring in any modifiers and subtracting enemy defense. For modeling's sake that's being converted into a binary hit or miss with a damage roll to pick a random result from the hit range.

It'd be just as possible to provide everyone with the Master Statistical Damage Table By Attack Class Vs Armor, or to have a fixed hit threshhold and a Master Damage Expression By Attack Class Vs Armor Incorporating Level Difference Table. This way just makes it easier for people to get their damage dice ready while the attack roll's still spinning.

Irda Ranger said:
Changing the creatures stats to "scale" it to the PCs is the same thing as rewriting their character sheet to take back the gains of leveling.

It's actually the same "underlying simulated" monster each time. At solo and elite class it's taking attack penalties to make more attacks and use powers in more complex ways, and the lower defenses and increased hit points model an identical durability but preserve the idea of "binary hit or miss with respectable hit chance and invariant damage expression". At minion class PC damage is basically off the charts and the higher defenses are just there because anything less won't instakill them and tracking hit points for 20 dudes is kind of a hassle. (Why doesn't the "solo" monster decide instead to instagib PCs? Maybe it can't, since only PCs and not monsters get severity bonus or the damage curve is just "kinder".)
 

Irda Ranger

First Post
Those are ways you can model shock and your character's ability to recover from it.

Actually, maybe shock is the wrong word there. The term I'm looking for I don't believe actually exists in English or maybe even language, but there's an adjective, and it is "sudden". Damage is "a suddenness", which does not destroy you on a fundamental level but can overwhelm you.
If you want to call it "shock" in your game, peachy, but that's neither the official interpretation nor the consensus opinion (from what I can gather).



Every Sim City game is the story of a city and how it grew. Everybody playing Sim City, unless they have fundamental brain damage, is making up their own story in their own head about their city and how it is growing.

This is because they are human, and humans make up stories about everything. It's what they do.
I know. But making up a story about stuff isn't determinant of the stuff. I can tell a story about how a rock ended up in my front yard, but it wasn't the story that put in there.

In narrativist play the rock is in the yard because of the story.

In simulationist play the rock it there because it "makes sense" within the world context. Whether we choose to tell a story about that is not germane to this thread.


There is no practical difference between a narrativist who for consistency's sake decides a city guard is not a credible participant in a story and a simulationist who runs the numbers and decides a city guard could not be a credible participant.
Yeah, there is. It matters whether cause comes before or after effect.


It's actually the same "underlying simulated" monster each time.
Other than pure role-play, the rules are the only means the players have of interacting with the monster. If you give it more HP, or a lower AC, it's a different monster. It looks the same, but this one's tougher (or weaker), or has Action Points and more actions per round, whatever.

My litmus test here is: what happens to the monster if you swap out the PC (or have both the 5th level and 22nd level version of the PC in the same room)? If suddenly the monster implodes under the inability to be two different things at once, different monster.
 

pemerton

Legend
The distinguishing characteristic is that simulationists recognize rules like "city guards are between 1st and 4th level" and narrativists don't. For a narrativist a city guard is whatever level he needs to be to advance the plot (within reason).
This is consistent with my remark that narrativists do not have an inconsistent gameworld, but do not have a consistent interpretation of the ingame meaning of metagame notions such as "level".

Also, the notion of "advancing the plot" has nothing to do with narrativist play as that phrase is generally used. It seems connected to what The Forge calls high concept simulationism. Whereas in this thread "simulationism" is being used to refer to what The Forge calls purist-for-system simulationism combined with more-or-less sandbox play.

A related point: many of the posts on this thread seem to assume that it is up to the GM to decide what the ingame meaning of the mechanics is (eg is the +0.5/lvl a "destiny" thing, or prowess, or ...?). In narrativist play a reasonable amount of that responsibility falls on the players.

As to why scale by +0.5/lvl at all? It allows advancement.

As to why not compress the scale, as opposed to compress its ingame interpretation? The scale as currently implemented interacts with bonuses from feats, from stats, from powers, from items. These other numbers, in turn, interact with damage dice, with hit point totals, etc.

I don't feel any great urge to build my own simulationist game around different numbers when WoTC have already worked out a set of numbers for me, and the non-simulationist use of those numbers is fairly straightforward.
 

Irda Ranger

First Post
metagame notions such as "level".
It may be a metagame term, but that doesn't mean it's effects are unobservable by the PCs. If you give a monster a +1 AC without granting the PCs an offsetting +1 Attack, you've changed the world in a measurable way. You made something harder to hit. It's different. Ergo, your game world is inconsistent if you did that for a reason that maps to the story you're telling rather than an "in game" cause & effect.

Like, for instance, if you promoted a city guard from 3rd level soldier to 10th level minion just so your players could have a fight with a little risk in it. His Attacks and AC are higher. A 1st level PC would have great trouble hitting his AC. The world is inconsistent.


I don't feel any great urge to build my own simulationist game around different numbers when WoTC have already worked out a set of numbers for me, and the non-simulationist use of those numbers is fairly straightforward.
It's actually pretty straight forward. 4E doesn't have the same baked-in dependencies that 3E had. It's a bunch of separate boxes that can be tweaked independently with minimal inconvenience to the rest of the system. It's actually really well designed for that.
 

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