Justifying high level 'guards', 'pirates', 'soldiers', 'assassins', etc.

[IceFractal]

What's being discussed here is, in part, what the +0.5/lvl models. Just because a game is played in which it doesn't mean the same thing every time for every different PC or monster doesn't mean that the gameworld is inconsistent. But once that sort of liberalisation is introduced into the game/metagame relationship, than it may become false that guards>PC, PC>dragon therefore guards>dragon. (One example - the PC is Bard Bowman, who is able to kill Smaug with a single arrow although still vulnerable to town guards.)

There's no good in game way of measuring "skill".

This works fine when you fight a dragon - which is the case in quite a few stories. But in most campaigns, that's not what you do. You fights lots of monsters, of many varieties, and you go on quests knowing that they will involve those fights.

And what this means is that the PCs have to know that they're powerful. Because if they didn't know that, they wouldn't go on 90% of the quests out there. If you believe you're a normal person, and a giant attacks the city, do you:
A) Go stab the giant in the foot.
B) Do something that has a chance in hell of working, like helping people evacuate.

Would someone who just got "lucky" before ever decide to go explore a tomb full of undead that have killed everyone within a 10 mile radius? Not unless they were suicidal. So if it's "luck", it has to be luck that works every time, and the PCs have to know that. And then we get back to the same situation. If their "luck" has held out for dozens of fights against many varieties of foes, and is consistent enough for them to explore places no sane person would go near ... then why doesn't it work against random bandits/guards?

 

[Delta]

I got it. On tvtropes.org, this is basically the same as the "Power Creep Power Seep" problem: Power Creep Power Seep - Television Tropes & Idioms

 

[pemerton]

IceFractal, what you say is probably true if the game is a sandboxish sequence of fights in which the PCs' main motivation is tomb-looting and treasure-hunting.

But the game needn't be played like that.

Each level requires 10 level-equivalent encounters. If we instead put in one major quest, five minor quests and skill challenges totalling to 2 encounters worth, we are then down to 6 level-equivalent encounters. If we make two of them slightly higher level, we can bring it down to 5 level-equivalent encounters.

Now integrate all of that into a single sequence of events (perhaps with one extended rest part way through), and we have one day in the life of the PCs in order for them to get a level.

Intersperse enough such days into the life of the PCs - separated by periods of ingame time in which know encounters take place and thus no at-table play occurs - and we have the story of how this band of heroes rose from obscurity to reach their epic destinies. And in that sort of game the prophecy/fate/genre-convention interpretation of the 0.5 per level bonus, at least for some of the characters involved, might not be out of place at all.

 

[IceFractal]

How do the encounters going by faster change things? If you asked me, personally, to go find and slay a band of demonic ogres and a pair of dragons, I would say "No, that would be crazy, I'll help in some way that isn't guaranteed death." If you then said, "But it'll go by very quickly, in the course of a day or two.", that wouldn't really change anything.

It's not just that characters wouldn't go explore the undead-filled tomb for loot, it's that any sane character is unlikely to go on a quest that appears to be certain failure and death, even for the noblest reasons, and especially not more than once. Because if the monsters really can kill you with one claw behind their backs, then you'd do more good by carrying messages or helping build fortifications.

The way I can see this making sense, is if PCs keep being thrown into situations they have to fight their way out of, with no chance to avoid them or go get backup. And that sounds rather like railroading, something which most players are no fan of.

 

[IceFractal]

Also I should note that simply having a flatter power-curve, for the entire game world, is completely legitimate if you want to play that way. If you want to say that by level 30, you have the power and foes of a 10th level character, there's no inconsistency - although in that case you may as well just cut XP to 1/3 and stop at 10th level.

The inconsistency comes from asymmetrical power, where you end up facing creatures that can destroy towns with a single rush, and calling yourself an "Archmage" or "Demigod", but when it comes to bandits/guards/miscellaneous-humanoids, you're suddenly just fairly skilled and lucky, and had better watch out if some alley thugs attack.

 

[pemerton]

The thought wasn't just that things go by faster, but that in that sort of game it wouldn't be absurd to suppose that the PCs were driven/aided by fate/destiny etc.

As to why the PCs would get involved in adventure - ingame the explanation can be whatever you like (it happended to Bilbo, after all, so it can happen to anyone), and at the table the explanation is "Because we came to your house to play D&D".

 

[Allister]

re: Oblivion aspect

Er, I think people are REALLY reading pg 42 wrong and interpreting stuff like the blue slime incorrectly as well.

Pg 42 is for the DM and what the DM needs is different than what the player sees.

Keep in mind that the skills in the PHB actually have physical/concrete characteristics. But this is NOT what a DM needs to craft an adventure.

Think of it like this...You're designing an encounter where YOU the DM wants the PCs to be trying to keep their balance. Going to the PHB first and selecting a DC makes no sense since you will have no idea if the PC can attempt it.

IT makes more sense to select the DC first and THEN translate it back via the skill DC lsting in the PHB.

If the blue slime was some type of schroedinger cat, then it makes no sense to even have set DCs as seen in the PHB since you wouldnt need them...The only reason you have the blue slime as an obstacle/encounter is because the DM wants to challenge the player.

 

[Anthraxus]

I just think you should be fighting something appropriate for your level and situation. I was suprised and a little bit put off when in an adventure(I'm not saying what or where), we fought two 14th level priests of Hextor, who were waiting to ambush us in a sewer... HUH? Two guys who could practically be high priests of their own temple- hanging around in a sewer waiting to ambush some adventurers.

Was it a challenge? Yes. Did it make any sense? No.

Now, high level guards/pirates/soldiers/assassins... I can see one every once in awhile(the mentioned "retired adventurer"), but not the norm.

How could the king have ten 20th level guards??? To protect him from the super rare 20th level party that comes in and doesn't act properly for their station? Blah.

 

[IceFractal]

The thought wasn't just that things go by faster, but that in that sort of game it wouldn't be absurd to suppose that the PCs were driven/aided by fate/destiny etc.

That's the thing - not everyone wants to be driven by destiny. Some people want to steer their own course. Now if destiny beckons, they might follow, but they don't want to be railroaded into it.

(it happended to Bilbo, after all, so it can happen to anyone),

So you're going to send a squadron of dwarven warriors and a high level wizard along with the PCs to help? This has issues as an example:
A) He was hired as a burglar, not to go slay the dragon by himself.
B) As seen in DM-of-the-Rings, the same plot that makes for an epic story can also make for epic railroading. Not everything that works in a novel is right for a game.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

To infest this thread with my inapproriate* Torg fanboyismn:

Torg had an interesting mechanic to make low level monsters more difficult threats. There were two types of Scenes - Standard and Dramatic Scenes.
The Drama Deck that is also used for determining initiative and special effects each round had a line for Standard and one for Dramatic Scenes.

In Standard Scenes, most of the effects are benefitial for the PCs - get an extra rerolls, win initiative, or get an extra action, or the enemy gets setbacks, breaks off or is fatigued.
In dramatic scenes, the enemies suddenly get intiatives, extra actions or extra rerolls, while the party gets setbacks and fatigue. (Not all cards are bad for the PCs, but the ratio gets worse).

Of course, Torg is not a level based system, so bringing a similar idea to D&D would be hard. But from a simulation perspective - the NPCs don't become more powerful in the dramatic scene. They just have more luck this time.
If the .5 bonus per level (and the +6 hp per level) for some NPCs just stand in for the extra luck they have in the particular scene, the same could apply here, and I suppose that goes in the direction of pemertons point of view. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if pemerton just takes this point to facilitate an interesting discussion - considering he at least used to play a lot of Rolemaster which certainly doesn't use much of these assumptions. )

Of course, I am not so much a fan of assuming that all of the .5 bonus per level or the +6 hp per level represent extra luck for any NPC. But I can live with a "trade" between hit points and the level bonus, and support "minionizing" regular monsters and similar things, possibly treating the XP value of each monster or NPC as the sum of their luck, skill and destiny, allowing to "transform" it into Solo low levels, Elite Medium Levels, Regular High Levels, and Minion Extreme High Level monsters. (At least that's one of my approaches. I might also be willing to change the XP value. Honestly, I'd prefer a move up/down along the Tiers - a 3rd level Elite becomes a 13th level Regular and a 23rd level Minion. But maybe using the XP value feels more... "honest" or fair? The XP gained from an encounter against the city guard stays consistent, but at low levels, you would need to beat 4 encounters with a lot of regular NPCs, and at high levels, only one encounter against a lot of minions... And I think as a player, this shouldn't feel "cheated" - you will notice quite a difference between finding the fight against 5 guards challenging and the difference of finding the fight against 20 guards challenging...)



*)inappropriate because I did play it less then 4E by now. And Torg is around for a decade or more, 4E for a few months.