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Justifying high level 'guards', 'pirates', 'soldiers', 'assassins', etc.

Fenes

First Post
But what purpose does it serve though?

When even a blinded PC on a roll of a 1 will auto-hit the monster, and the monster itself can't even hit a PC when it has combat advantage, why bother with it? The PCs won't get any experience with it and other than

From a DM perspective, I don't think they should be expected to run a persistent world a la MMORPG since persistent worlds tend to be static.

Does your world have beggars in the streets? Passer-bys in cities? Guards at the gate? Peasants on the fields? Cobblers, tailors, pottery merchants? Fishermen and bakers? Children playing in a side alley, cats and dogs taking naps in the sun? Birds hunting insects?

What purpose do they serve?

The same purpose as a blue slime has in a dungeon even though the PCs won't get experience for killing or bypassing it, and might do that without rolling any dice: To turn a world map that links encounters into a world.
 

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Rel

Liquid Awesome
But what purpose does it serve though?

When even a blinded PC on a roll of a 1 will auto-hit the monster, and the monster itself can't even hit a PC when it has combat advantage, why bother with it? The PCs won't get any experience with it and other than

I'll echo Fenes comments from above. The reason for including the Blue Slime is not to be a challenge. It stopped being a challenge a while back and turned into scenery. It brings the world to life and gives it internal consistancy.

I realize that those are not priorities for all gamers but they happen to be for me (and many others). So that is the point of including them.

If the PC's abilities now outpace a challenge to the point where it isn't a challenge, there is no need to roll any dice. As you say, this isn't a MMORPG and there is no need to "click on" the Level 1 Wolves in the starter zone. The GM simply describes that the Blue Slime is there and that it now poses no threat to the PC's thanks to their rise in power.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
I'll echo Fenes comments from above. The reason for including the Blue Slime is not to be a challenge. It stopped being a challenge a while back and turned into scenery. It brings the world to life and gives it internal consistancy.

I realize that those are not priorities for all gamers but they happen to be for me (and many others). So that is the point of including them.
True. You can certainly do this and there is nothing wrong with it. I will often skip through the details of such things because my players get bored pretty quickly unless interesting stuff is happening all the time. They want things that are a challenge to defeat to fight. They want the things that happen in the adventure to be important to an interesting story.

We've tried a sandbox like game before and our DM had a lot of fun describing what happened....for the first 3 or 4 hours. Until she realized that she was going to be describing, in detail, our one night at the inn for multiple sessions straight unless she took some control of the game. It was around the same time in the game that half the table was beginning to get bored of sandboxing it as well. I was looking at the clock and thinking "We've been talking to people in a bar, picking up women, drinking, playing darts with locals, role playing our characters now for..how many hours? Wow. I mean, it was fun for a while, but I'm a fighter and I'd like to use my sword at some point."

Then the DM had someone come up to us and recruit us to go into a dungeon and we were all happy for the change in pace, and we proceeded with the dungeon crawl. All the monsters in the dungeon were level appropriate and there was a big puzzle to be solved to get to the end.

The point is that you can use "color" monsters as long as they don't spend much time on screen and don't occupy much time. It's fair enough to say "You are so powerful, the guards don't even stand a chance, you kill them all and take all the treasure out of the vault, you have have 300,000,000 gp, what are you going to do now?" It's another to have an entire campaign where you don't make attack rolls because it is all roleplaying or fighting enemies too weak for you.

But for me, it makes a much more exciting story(which is what I'm trying to tell by playing the game) if the PCs go through trials that challenge them. Much in the same way you rarely see great heroes fighting things that are no problem at all for them in movies. But I am aware that this concept is pretty much the exact opposite of sandbox play(which is generally pretty simulationist). The idea of simulationism and sandbox play is that "things are there because they are there...I'm not about to skip description of them simply because the PCs are too high level to care about them." But, I agree with other people that say 4e has been designed from the other point of view first: The PCs encounter things that challenge them and you make a story up around that. Game first, story second, simulation third.

When I implement this idea it goes like this:

The PCs are 15th level, they are in Paragon tier so their adventures should revolve around issues that affect entire regions of the world. They should fight monsters around 12-18th level. An Elder Black Dragon is level 18 and the adventure might take a level or 2 to get to the point where they actually meet the dragon, I'll use one of those. He likely has a bunch of minions, they should be around the same level so that they are a challenge for the PCs. There are a bunch of Cyclops scattered from Level 16 through 18. They sound like worthy minions. The dragon maybe conquered them or made a deal with them to....search for an item he wanted. Now they are rampaging across the countryside destroying village after village looking for it. The PCs are called to deal with it. I don't want the encounters to get boring, so I won't use JUST Cyclops, they likely have some pets, some allies, and the PCs will randomly encounter other things(also around level 15) on their journey. And there we have the skeleton of an adventure. We then fill in the where and how and why. What village are the Cyclops attacking when the PCs confront them? How do the PCs hear about it? Why do the PCs want to stop them? Where does it go from there?

But if I was going for simulation first, I'd go about designing that adventure completely differently. After all, there probably aren't that many Cyclops around in my world, so a large number of them banding together wouldn't be realistic. The minions that the dragon could likely gather from the surrounding area would all be orcs. Which couldn't challenge the PCs at their current level. But I'll describe the orcs as attacking the PCs anyways, and describe them as being completely destroyed with no XP. Then, when the PCs finally convince an orc to tell them that a dragon asked them to do it, they'll likely attack the dragon's cave and the dragon will kill them since they got no XP from anything before this battle. But that's fair, the Dragon SHOULD kill them because they should be smart enough to know they can't just take on a DRAGON just because they are 15th level. And so the game likely ends in a TPK. Maybe they all get brought back to life and they start looking for a different problem that is closer to what they can handle, and so on.

Of course, I know my friends and I don't want to play in the second game.
 

S'mon

Legend
But if I was going for simulation first, I'd go about designing that adventure completely differently...

Why does simulation require that orcs are no threat, and dragons are invincible? This sounds a lot less plausible than your original non-simulation adventure - firstly, no reason orcs shouldn't have elite types same as humans. Secondly, if orcs are no threat, they're no use to the invincible dragon, so he wouldn't have bothered recruiting them. Finally, why is a band of cyclops unrealistic? Did you number-crunch the amount of food the cyclops need, plausible population density et al? I don't think so. :)

We had a discussion here recently about the plausibility of the 2,000-strong frost giant army in "Test of the Warlords". A 15' frost giant with human-type physiology will need around 10-12 times as much food as a human. Thousands didn't seem very likely, but hundreds seemed reasonably plausible, given a vast tundra roamed by herds of mammoth etc for them to eat, and fishing for wales, seals, etc. Certainly I can't see any reasonable simulationist objection to a few dozen cyclops, as long as your map leaves a reasonable amount of space for them to dwell in. Ulysses' cyclops was a cattle-herder, there's a likely food source. Which then leads into scenarios like stealing the cyclops' cattle so they starve...
 

AllisterH

First Post
I'll echo Fenes comments from above. The reason for including the Blue Slime is not to be a challenge. It stopped being a challenge a while back and turned into scenery. It brings the world to life and gives it internal consistancy.

I realize that those are not priorities for all gamers but they happen to be for me (and many others). So that is the point of including them.

If the PC's abilities now outpace a challenge to the point where it isn't a challenge, there is no need to roll any dice. As you say, this isn't a MMORPG and there is no need to "click on" the Level 1 Wolves in the starter zone. The GM simply describes that the Blue Slime is there and that it now poses no threat to the PC's thanks to their rise in power.

Keep in mind, THIS is my position on the subject.

I'm in 100% agreement with you here.

Which is why when people use the Blue Slime example, my understanding if that they WANT it to be a challenge and this is what pg.42 gives them guidelines on.

If a challenge has become sceneary, you don't need pg 42 at all, but if for some reason, the Blue Slime has evolved into the Azure Gel which looks like a Blue Slime and you want to challenge the Pcs, then g 42 gives you the stats needed...
 

knightofround

First Post
I'm surprised that so many people have objections to there being high-level humanoids in campaigns. It's never come up as an issue in any of the campaigns I've been in.

My rationale is this. If there are truly epic threats in the world, there has to be forces that can take care of them when the PCs aren't around for the world to make sense. If all guards are level 3 mooks there's literally nothing stopping a level 12 dragon from destroying entire villages, castles, etc -- nobody can hit its AC. So there has to be guards that actually hit this thing, even though individually they're useless. So I see guards as paragon-level minions, or heroic standard-level creatures.

Another point is that I like PCs who are essentially normal people who are put in extraordinary circumstances. If by level 8 you're already Conan, then by level 16 you would be....well, more superhero-y than I would like D&D to be. I want the PCs to have figures that they can look up to, so when they gain levels and go back to their home village and size up the local guard they can realize how much they've improved.

For my style of humanoid level progression, 4E is perfect. A basic commoner is a level 1 minion. A commoner that might have some battle experience (like a tavern bouncer, or a new PC) is a level 1 character. Traditional guards/pirates/soldiers/assassins are level 5-10 characters. This is perfect, because all I have to do when the PCs come back to the same guards/pirates/etc, is change the from "standard" to "minion". So these mooks continue to be useful in paragon tier.

It's when the PCs make it into epic tier that they truly get that "Conan" experience, where they are so freakin awesome normal people can no longer touch them. So I would say characters like Conan/Achilles/Gandalf would be epic, Chuck Norris/Drizzt(early in series)/Boromir would be paragon, and Tanis/Jack Sparrow/Hobbits would be heroic.

IMHO, if you allow the PCs to morph into Conan-esque characters by such a low level, it takes alot of the motivation out of the game. I get more enjoyment from taking a small fry and turning him into conan than starting with conan and making him even more superhero-y.
 
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S'mon

Legend
My rationale is this. If there are truly epic threats in the world, there has to be forces that can take care of them when the PCs aren't around for the world to make sense. If all guards are level 3 mooks there's literally nothing stopping a level 12 dragon from destroying entire villages, castles, etc -- nobody can hit its AC. So there has to be guards that actually hit this thing, even though individually they're useless. So I see guards as paragon-level minions, or heroic standard-level creatures.

Umm, the unstoppable dragon is a classic fantasy trope! Dragons are *supposed* to be immune to mooks! That's how they get to sit in their cave and be fed virgins, a la Dragonslayer.
A world where any threat can be handled by NPCs, has no need of PCs.
 

Shades of Green

First Post
A world where any threat can be handled by NPCs, has no need of PCs.
Quoted for truth.

Sure, there would be high-level NPCs around, but they won't be able to be everywhere at once. And when the PCs are really high-level, they're superheroes - and fighting goblins or the town's watch is far less superheroic than fighting supervillains and epic monsters.
 
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Snoweel

First Post
A world where any threat can be handled by NPCs, has no need of PCs.

Yet you previously said that in your sandbox game there is no distinction between PCs and NPCs.

The concept of there being a "need" for such metagame concepts as player characters is intrinsically narrativist.
 


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