Kalamar losing popularity?

[Nightfall]

To be fair Nightfall is (as far as I know) a fan and not an employee of Necromancer/SSS/WW.

And no I am not. Yes my name appears in some of the recent Scarred Lands stuff but only for purposes of stuff I submitted along with many others (CC3, R&R2 that got moved to PG: WBS because of space considerations) Otherwise I am about as high on the S&SS/WW food chain as an amobea.

 

[sword-dancer]

Kalamar Supplements are on my must have d&d/d20 List, not all dragonlöance is on that list.

I consider KAlamar at the same level as Midgard.
This is for an German RPGler the best category.

 

[Dristram]

Bashing of FR(?)

You're into something here. That's where most of my dislike for Kalamar really stems from: it's fans. It's almost every time they tell about Kalamar there has to be a deregatory remark about FR in there. Maybe I'm just thin-skinned, but that's how I perceive it.

It's like Kalamar was more defined by "It's NOT FR" than by its own merits. Thats my gripe with the setting, really.

I could very well be considered one of the FR bashers, though I don't think I ever bashed it with phrases such as "FR sucks" and the like. But I have expressed what I didn't like about FR and that probably read as "FR sucks" to FR fans. I am an old time fan of Greyhawk, and have been since before FR existed. I got a sour taste in my mouth when I found out that in 2nd Ed. AD&D, Greyhawk was dropped and this new Forgotten Realms setting became the main setting. Talk about being angry! On top of it, I started running into players of FR that thought Drow were such a cool FR race. An FR race??! That was it for me. It felt like FR had raped GH! I would guess a lot of other GH fans feel the way I did. A lot of GH fans found and fell in love with Kingdoms of Kalamar. And the fact that it was a new official D&D setting, and with GH being touted as the base setting for the new 3E D&D, I know I kind of felt vindicated. BUT, even so, FR seemed to get all the limelight, and so fans of both GH and KoK became vocal about their dislike of FR on discussion forums.

I guess the point of my post is that there is history behind the reasons for the "bashings" of FR. Those who have only known FR will have a hard time understanding them unfortunately.

I want to end this with a note that I have played in, and enjoyed playing on Faerun. It is a fun setting for it's type. I really don't have anything against the setting of FR, but more in what TSR did to GH and WotC has been doing to KoK (lack of support). FR is promoted the most, even though all of them are core D&D settings. I would like to see all three settings promoted equally.

 

[Kichwas]

In a later post, I did mention I didn't like the setting proper because it was "too generic" and thus not different enough from FR (and I now add GH into that mix of blandness as well). By generic, I mean the illogical "everything but the kitchen sink" approach which so many d20 publishers feel compelled to take (following WoTC's lead), where they tend to just cram in everything from the PHB, DMG and MM seemingly without much thought: Illogical settlement/city placement, illogical adjacent environments, illogical economies, illogical religions (and way too many), illogical number of high level NPCs, illogical languages, illogical amounts of magic, illogical effect of readily available magics on society and technology, etc. Kalamar certainly handles some of these areas better than FR or GH, but the overall impression I get is that it's "just another D&D fantasy world"

You must have Kalamar mixed up with something else...

Kalamar has a lot of thought put into the logic of it's city placement, geography, cultural spread, effects of magic on society (and it is often considered a low magic setting because it assumes the core rules baseline), consistancy in language and naming, a single consistant pantheon, only one overly high level NPC in the entire setting (and he was put in as an afterthought errata - he's not in any print book), very few NPCs in the high levels (above 10 - many of the 'movers and shakers are under 10, some even level 1 where birth empowers and not merrit), and as logical of an economy as possible given the equipment list in the PHB.

It even has trade routes listed out - based on geography and wind patterns (which are based on global tempatures and seas - which are based on plate tectonics - which are based on Earth models). There's also a detailed listed on what economic resources exist here or there and if they are in suplus for trade or not.


Illogic is not a word you can validly use in a discussion about Kalamar. Doing so shows your ignorance of the setting.

You can claim it's bland, you can claim it's not for you, you can say you don't like the author's underwear - and use this or any other taste-based factor to stand against it. But claiming illogic shows an error in your ability to judge.

 

[Darklone]

You're into something here. That's where most of my dislike for Kalamar really stems from: it's fans. It's almost every time they tell about Kalamar there has to be a deregatory remark about FR in there. Maybe I'm just thin-skinned, but that's how I perceive it.

It's like Kalamar was more defined by "It's NOT FR" than by its own merits. Thats my gripe with the setting, really.

The sentiments are still there. I've seen too many FR games where my 2nd level character got more magic items than he could carry. I had other FR games as well though.

The problem here was Iron_Chefs comparison of Kalamar and FR. THAT's something Kalamar fans don't like at all, because many of them ran away from FR to Kalamar.

I personally don't know much about the selling aspect of the game but product wise, they seem pretty strong.

They were one of the first if not the first with 3.5 material including an adventure and a monster manual style book.

They are revising their older material. I'm curious to see what the VIllian Design Handbook 3.5 looks like since it's actually less expensive than the old version. Their GM screen will continue to rock on toast and be the best.

They've also continued to support the setting via sourcebooks like Loona, a recent release, and the not so recent release of Stealth and Style. Now that book is important to note for me because it takes two alternative classes and fleshes them out with options, PrCs, feats and other good stuff. Something that a lot of settings with alternative core classes, don't bother with.

Joe, not to disappoint you, but the VDH 3.5 is just an updated reprint of the old one since it's sold out. And yes, Kenzer published the first 3.5 adventure (Stand& Deliver by Brian Jelke).

Stealth and Style included the 3.5 class updates for the Basiran Dancer and the Infiltrator (both already in the KPG) as well as more nice infos about the uniqueness of the classes.

 

[Darrin Drader]

I really don't have anything against the setting of FR, but more in what TSR did to GH and WotC has been doing to KoK (lack of support). FR is promoted the most, even though all of them are core D&D settings.

It isn't WotCs job to promote Kalamar since it isn't their setting. It belongs to Kenzer & Co. and the D&D logo is used under license. It is therefore Kenzer's responsibility to promote the KoK brand, not WotCs.

Just thought I'd clear that up.

 

[Wraith101]

True, the "I hate FR" thing has died down at the kenzer boards and it's membership is increasing every day. I think some of the I hate FR stuff stemmed from some of the old flame wars about FR verses kalamar on these and other boards.

I personally do not like FR and love Kalamar (although I am running a homebrew at the moment) but have a huge problem trying to obtain stock.

This is nothing to do with my LGS but the suppliers. It seems the distributers have problems with Kalamar stock right from square 1. of course I have no idea what but that is what i have observed. . .

The perception that Kalamar is dying is possibly due to the fact that they are not advertising very much anymore (specifially in Dungeon and Dragon mags.). This could make it seem that the setting is sying off. . .

 

[Kichwas]

Check eBay and frpgames.com, as well as other online sources. With eBay you can find sellers willing to ship to Australia - I've got a cousin in law in Korea who buys WWII - Vietnam era military uniforms from all over the world through that site and gets 'em shipped out to his farm there, and I've bought books from Europe on a few occaisions myself.

 

[Iron_Chef]

You must have Kalamar mixed up with something else..

Illogic is not a word you can validly use in a discussion about Kalamar. Doing so shows your ignorance of the setting.

You can claim it's bland, you can claim it's not for you, you can say you don't like the author's underwear - and use this or any other taste-based factor to stand against it. But claiming illogic shows an error in your ability to judge.

I use the term "illogical" to describe any setting that has 1) dozens, if not hundreds, of human, non-human and monster races all sitting side by side (many in harmony, such as the thousands of gnomish defenders of the human city of Geanavue) just because the PHB and MM say they exist in D&D so therefore they "must" exist in Kalamar; 2) a bloated FR level NON-pantheon of dozens of gods (none of which have proper names); 3) a setting that has the same access to magical spells (and thus items) and does not take into account the drastic economic, educational, militaristic and transportation applications thereof, as these would immediately be exploited by governments for their betterment and their enemies detriment.

I did say Kalamar was better at detailing some elements than FR or GH, but ultimately, it still subscribes to the same tired "kitchen sink" theory of world design, as well as suffering from the sanitizing effect of political correctness, which flies in the face of the logic of human nature. Maybe Kalamar is better than GH or FR, I've never played it, nor have I read all of the setting or its sourcebooks, but it does not *appear* different enough from FR/GH to me to warrant switching. I can't pick up the setting and say, "wow, this is just so different and cool". All I can do is say "well, at least they got some things right".

 

[Darklone]

I use the term "illogical" to describe any setting that has
1) dozens, if not hundreds, of human, non-human and monster races all sitting side by side (many in harmony, such as the thousands of gnomish defenders of the human city of Geanavue) just because the PHB and MM say they exist in D&D so therefore they "must" exist in Kalamar;

Well... is this a gnome rant ? Gnomes are pretty likely to work hand in hand with humans, especially in a city of artisans. Tinkergnomes anyone?

2) a bloated FR level NON-pantheon of dozens of gods (none of which have proper names);

That's not true. All of the gods have different names for different countries and races. That's actually something I really like.

3) a setting that has the same access to magical spells (and thus items) and does not take into account the drastic economic, educational, militaristic and transportation applications thereof, as these would immediately be exploited by governments for their betterment and their enemies detriment.

IMHO another strong point of the setting, at least for low magic lovers like me. I can play the heros like typical D&D dudes with standard equipment and stuff... and that makes them pretty special in a low magic world. OTOH, I can throw hordes of mooks without magical equipment at them Love it!

I did say Kalamar was better at detailing some elements than FR or GH, but ultimately, it still subscribes to the same tired "kitchen sink" theory of world design,

Kalamar was not designed in the good old fashioned "we start at a village and think about the next town" way.

...as well as suffering from the sanitizing effect of political correctness, which flies in the face of the logic of human nature. Maybe Kalamar is better than GH or FR, I've never played it, nor have I read all of the setting or its sourcebooks, but it does not *appear* different enough from FR/GH to me to warrant switching. I can't pick up the setting and say, "wow, this is just so different and cool". All I can do is say "well, at least they got some things right".

Well. For me it was like this. I had big trouble with the "balance" of powers in FR and Greyhawk... was puzzled together and didn't fit. So I was looking for something that fit... and found it.

Looks like you've been looking for other things. Good luck finding it