D&D 5E Kara Tur vs Tarkir vs Kamigawa vs Plane of Mountains and Seas vs Ikoria

Parmandur

Book-Friend
This is very interesting because there's kind of a pattern with Britain sourcebooks for US-made RPGs. They quite often do get written by British people, but they have a strong tendency, for whatever reason, to embrace ludicrous stereotypes (often decades out of date at the time they're written), indulge in celtomania that would make people think you were nuts outside of the most extreme New Age circles here, and center stuff on ideas of the UK that are utterly bizarre. CP2020 and several WoD sourcebooks come immediately to mind - oddly RIFTS of all things had a take so profoundly nuts that it worked. The WoD ones were really particularly sad because they were clearly written about the present-day of when they were published, but presented a UK that existed last 15+ years before, culturally. It's like, you could tell someone who was in their early 30s or a bit later, who was quite sure they were "still cool" had written them. I dread to think what kids today would like of a UK sourcebook I wrote!

However, it appears in this case that Moonshae (1987) was actually written by Douglas Niles, a Wisconsite, so it may have been published by TSR UK, but it is still an American take. He also wrote the Moonshae trilogy of novels, which were just even more ridiculous than the setting book (to be fair I did read them first, though).

It's a funny story: Niles wrote the novels for a project TSR UK was working on and was quite far along with: the idea was to do a British Dragonlance, with novels, modules, setting books, etc.

TSR UK provided the Setting, Niles was given the novels. TSR UK closed their doors and the project was cancelled, but TSR was left with a setting and a set of novels they thought could sell, and asked Greenwood if they could squeeze it into the new hotness they were working on with the upcoming FR boxset, and he obliged.
 

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It's a funny story: Niles wrote the novels for a project TSR UK was working on and was quite far along with: the idea was to do a British Dragonlance, with novels, modules, setting books, etc.

TSR UK provided the Setting, Niles was given the novels. TSR UK closed their doors and the project was cancelled, but TSR was left with a setting and a set of novels they thought could sell, and asked Greenwood if they could squeeze it into the new hotness they were working on with the upcoming FR boxset, and he obliged.

Whooooaaaa I did not know that story at all, not even a whisper, and that is fascinating and explains just about everything that's peculiar about the Moonshaes, not least that they're ludicrously overstuffed.

The dreadful take on the setting being part-TSR UK (I can only believe part given just how extremely hard Niles punches the "celtomania" pedal in the novels!) absolutely does fit the pattern. I kind of wonder how many people were even in the UK RPG production scene in that era (mid-late '80s though late' 90s), and if some of them were later part-responsible for the WoD, CP2020 and other books. Some of the WoD ones really screamed "this was written by a 30-something who is seriously into New Age stuff" - and I guess if they were a 20-something in the '80s...

I feel like the whole "Fantasy Celtland", "Fantasy Central America", "Fantasy Arabia" all appearing in the FR thing was pretty weird in in the late 80s and '90s. Only really Al Qadim felt like it worked, because it felt a lot more respectful and cautious and thoughtful (it's not without Orientalism, but it's not, like, gross or tacky).
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Whooooaaaa I did not know that story at all, not even a whisper, and that is fascinating and explains just about everything that's peculiar about the Moonshaes, not least that they're ludicrously overstuffed.

The dreadful take on the setting being part-TSR UK (I can only believe part given just how extremely hard Niles punches the "celtomania" pedal in the novels!) absolutely does fit the pattern. I kind of wonder how many people were even in the UK RPG production scene in that era (mid-late '80s though late' 90s), and if some of them were later part-responsible for the WoD, CP2020 and other books. Some of the WoD ones really screamed "this was written by a 30-something who is seriously into New Age stuff" - and I guess if they were a 20-something in the '80s...

I feel like the whole "Fantasy Celtland", "Fantasy Central America", "Fantasy Arabia" all appearing in the FR thing was pretty weird in in the late 80s and '90s. Only really Al Qadim felt like it worked, because it felt a lot more respectful and cautious and thoughtful (it's not without Orientalism, but it's not, like, gross or tacky).

It's a mess, for sure: kind of fun? At least when I read the books in Middle School...but you know, California in the 90's, didn't seem so strange...
 

Marandahir

Crown-Forester (he/him)
I personally prefer Rokugan and Kamigawa to Kara-Tur. The fantastic storytelling in those settings are a bit richer since they aren't pasted onto Faerûn as an exotic destination for Forgotten Realms heroes to visit. Instead, they're stand-alone settings that are able to recycle Wuxia and Jidai Geki storytelling tropes in an internally consistent world.

Kamigawa is slightly preferable to Rokugan due to it's WotC ownership and the Planeswalker narrative hook to connect it with other D&D settings. The trade off there, of course, is that that invites players to make heroes of Ravnican or Therosian (or Faerûnian or Eberronic!) origin, who end up travelling to Kamigawa. And that ends us back in the Orientalist tourism/adventurism problem that Kara-Tur has.

In an ideal world, WotC would create a new setting from the ground up, crafted and created and written by Asian worldbuilders, and approved by Asian markets for sale. It doesn't have to be true to any one country's mythology or folklore, but it shouldn't be a pastiche of caricatures of various stand-in cultures (mainland empires based off China and India, island archipelagos based off Japan and Indonesia, etc). Ground up setting that is culturally sensitive and non-exploitative while allowing players to explore the storytelling tropes of Asian fiction, folklore, legend, and myth in the same way Forgotten Realms and Eberron explore the tropes of Europe and North American stories.

We've got most of the class builds needed. There are broad storytelling overlaps between chilvalric knights and old west cowboys and Japanese samurai, for example - it's why Kurosawa Akira's films were so readily adapted in the west into other settings (thinking Magnificent Seven and Star Wars, specifically), and why likewise Kurosawa was able to adapt Shakespeare onto Japanese feudal settings (Throne of Blood; Ran). But there are unique flavours and flourishes that are enjoyed by modern audiences around the world, including and especially in their source countries, and it's not a bad thing to want to tell those sorts of stories instead of or alongside Euro-American ones. Doing so just has to be in a respectful and collaborative way.

I don't think that precludes utilising an already-made setting like Kara-Tur, Kamigawa, or Rokugan, but it I think it's a lot more difficult when you're trying to reinvent settings created with a historic stink of orientalist appropriation and racist caricatures.

I know there ARE East Asian worldbuilders and publishers who have really cool settings out there. It might be easier to adopt one of those settings INTO official D&D, like they did with Mercer's Wildemount book. I'm sure Hasbro would prefer it be a setting that WotC owns entirely though, and Wildemount only exists because of the massive phenomenon that is Critical Role (Hasbro wanted in on the $$$, so WotC was able to coproduce the book). I do not know well enough the cost-benefit analysis for creating my above "ideal" framework, with all the market research and Eberron-style setting contest and hiring in appropriate staff, contractors, and cultural counsels, versus buying up the rights to an already created world and adopting it into D&D. Both could be very expensive versus the potential payoff.

I would imagine WotC would rather provide DMs and Players with the options they need (like the Samurai Fighter in Xanathar's or the Way of Shadow Monk in the PHB) and leave the world building to third parties to navigate between the scylla and carybdis in these perilous waters (negative public opinion and $ value loss).

If they CAN create or promote such a setting, however, it COULD align with Hasbro's goal of creating marketable worlds to play in that can eventually be films that aren't absolute rubbish like Book of Vile Darkness. I know that's a big part of why they hadn't given up on D&D in general after 4e. 5e has paid off very much so, but it's still a bit player in a bigger portfolio, and any new setting has to align with their market goals, among them: synergy with other Hasbro products like MtG; tapping into adjacent popular fandoms such as Critical Role, Acquisitions Inc., Rick & Morty, & Stranger Things; or building up & supporting a core setting audience already well-known in D&D (FR, Eberron, Planescape, Dark Sun) for the purpose of synergy with video games, movies, and other media products & paraphinelia.

East Asia is not as tapped a market as Hasbro would like for D&D. There's a lot of room for expansion of the fandom in Japan and South Korea, and potentially huge expansion in China if they can tap into that market. Such a setting, if done right, could be a lure for new audiences. Wuxia and Chinese mythological settings (Jiānghú) and Japanese period dramas (Jidai geki) are featuring a great resurgence these past years in both live action series & movies and in animation.

Furthermore, the most popular trope in Japanese anime right now is the Another World Setting (Isekai). A new D&D setting connected to our world like Forgotten Realms originally was (or say, Dungeons & Dragons the cartoon), but pulling ordinary people over the threshold into the fantastical might be perfect market coordination. Granted, Isekai settings TEND to be western-inspired fantasy world, but they aren't always as such - some of the most prominent ones that come to my nostalgic mind are InuYasha, Vision of Escaflowne, Fushigi Yugi, and the Twelve Kingdoms. I know those are all older worlds, but they are models for what I'd particularly look for in an Asian-inspired D&D setting. I'd also look to Netflix and the countless mythology-inspired C-drama, J-drama, and K-dramas that have been recommended…
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
I mean, every Roma nerd I’ve ever known absolutely fracking despises that book, and most of them either have been or still are loud on social media about it, but okay.

Yeah Curse of Strahd is a little infamous for anyone in Europe who is sensitive to Roma stereotypes... I've also seen criticism of Chult as well, though I don't believe that was nearly as fragrant as CoS.
 



The Asian public is not homogenee. Fandom from Taiwan, Sourth-Korea and Japan would rather elements from their own folklore.

I like the concept of the shen of PC race but not the racial traits. That is the reason I like the idea by Pathfinder 2 about racial traits being replaced with optional racial traits.

WotC doesn't need Legend of Five Rings when its can create a complete setting and the samurai clans recycled with ersatzs factions, maybe with other PC races.
 

Marandahir

Crown-Forester (he/him)
The Asian public is not homogenee. Fandom from Taiwan, Sourth-Korea and Japan would rather elements from their own folklore.

I like the concept of the shen of PC race but not the racial traits. That is the reason I like the idea by Pathfinder 2 about racial traits being replaced with optional racial traits.

WotC doesn't need Legend of Five Rings when its can create a complete setting and the samurai clans recycled with ersatzs factions, maybe with other PC races.

Agreed. Homogenezation is one of the critical issues in the development of any Asian-inspired setting.
 

Eh, I think if Hasbro wants fantasy role playing games by Asians for Asians, they can partner with and/or buy out some Asian FRP game companies, and let them figure what parts of 5e are culturally transferrable and what new stuff would fit in. Sure that might take a couple of years (and some time to turn it back into English), but with 5e's release schedule, it is not like anyone would notice.
 

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