Keep out of combat in D&D? Why?

[Snoweel]

I think that's very, very subjective. If that's the gauge, I'd say all editions after 1st are lacking. 2nd edition was possibly the worst -- in the rulebooks, the settings were good. IMO, 3e is slightly worse than 4e, but there isn't a huge difference.

You're right - it's totally subjective.

I wrote about people's complaints with 4e's lack of fluff yet I personally am not complaining. I love 4e.

But I think those people who are unhappy with 4e are right. Just as I think the people who are happy with it are also right.

Subjectivity's a wonderful thing.

I fully expect some or even many people to disagree with me on this. Gygaxian prose drives some people up a wall. Others got a charge out of the 3e art, which never really floated my boat. But, that's why I say it's subjective.

Right again.

While I appreciate EGG as the founding father of the game, I think most of his ideas are corny.

You can please some of the people all of the time, etc, etc, etc...

 

[RFisher]

My players smoked some killer bees so they could carefully remove the treasure the hive had been placed to guard.

It was hilarious when they later met the rightful owners of that treasure and felt Lawfully compelled to return it. (With no coercion from me, BTW. I almost never enforce alignment.)

“In all the years I’ve been playing this game, I’ve never given the treasure back!”

 

[mmadsen]

A few posts recently have touched upon a playstyle in older editions of D&D where you tried to avoid combat.

This is utterly opposed to how I played AD&D back in the day: the game was about combat. Sure, with some groups you could do great narrative games or have strong role-playing experiences, but, mostly, it was about the combat.

I delved into the Keep on the Borderlands, where I slew the monsters and took their stuff. Same with the Temple of Elemental Evil, and in the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief.

As kids, we had a few styles of play.

When we ran our own adventures for each other, they might be low-combat or high-combat, but the fights were always straightforward and winnable.

When my older brother ran "modules" for us, we always died. We died on the way to the Caves of Chaos. We died in the first orc cave. We died in the second orc cave. By the third or fourth try, with fresh 1st-level characters, we might slowly realize that charging forward and "rolling to hit" was not always going to work, but we never got very good at forcing the monsters to fight on our terms.

Ah, those were the days!

 

[MerricB]

As kids, we had a few styles of play.

When we ran our own adventures for each other, they might be low-combat or high-combat, but the fights were always straightforward and winnable.

When my older brother ran "modules" for us, we always died. We died on the way to the Caves of Chaos. We died in the first orc cave. We died in the second orc cave. By the third or fourth try, with fresh 1st-level characters, we might slowly realize that charging forward and "rolling to hit" was not always going to work, but we never got very good at forcing the monsters to fight on our terms.

Ah, those were the days!

Ah! Your older brother was one of the early Killer DMs!

Cheers!

 

[justanobody]

When my older brother ran "modules" for us, we always died.

<snip good content for space saving>

Ah, those were the days!

That is why you avoid combat as much as you can in older editions. It is fun, intense and brutal, and there is plenty of it. So what you don't fight in this room trying to clear out the entire dungeon doesn't mean that you won't find something else later. There will always be plenty of fights to be had, so as someone once said, "learn to pick your fights".

Not to mention those things you tried to avoid on the way in, might just be waiting on you on your way back out in a new location. Camping to rest is goooood. Gives you time to prepare battle tactics and escape routes.

 

[mmadsen]

Ah! Your older brother was one of the early Killer DMs!

Not really -- it's just that the pre-published modules brought out the war-gamer in him. He played the kobolds and orcs fairly smart, and we kids played our characters fairly dumb.

I can look back to my old gaming memories and track my cognitive development quite nicely.

Camping to rest is goooood. Gives you time to prepare battle tactics and escape routes.

When you're camping is when they get you! Post a guard and do not light a fire!

 

[justanobody]

That is why you have dry rations and lick them to soften them rather than crunch into them to prevent being found when camping without a fire.

Also what happens to you when you are camping tells you a lot about your DM. Do hoards of patrols come through during the night even when you are in a low population area?

 

[mmadsen]

Also what happens to you when you are camping tells you a lot about your DM. Do hoards of patrols come through during the night even when you are in a low population area?

It does say quite a bit about your DM -- and he can certainly kill you without being a "killer" DM.

After all, if you kill a few Hobgoblins and then retreat to recover, you should expect organized bands to come searching for you. And since they've taken the initiative, they have no reason to search for you in groups of two or three. They're hunting a great elf warrior with a magic sword, so they know they need plenty of goblin scouts to flush out their prey and more than a few heavy infantry to do the real fighting. (Those goblins always run away after throwing a dart or two. Cowards.)

 

[justanobody]

I never said killed DM, just it tells you about your DM and what to expect from them.

I wouldn't expect a highly populate area to not put people on patrol more heavily, but if it happens right away there may be some suspicion in areas that are not often traveled.

It is both the DM job to challenge the players with these patrols, but allow the players and not just the character to recoup and think about what is going on and how to proceed. It is a game, and not something that should totally tax the players to exhaustion while playing it. You need down times and the DM should provide them at the right time.

Killer DM or no, it will tell you how to best find the places to rest. Like the old SSI games where you just flat out couldn't camp because they were patrol zones, and you had to find a safe room. That one safe room should always be there in case, even if it isn't so you don't force an accidental TPK. Let the players get in over their heads on their own if they want to fight everything in every room.

 

[Victim]

It does say quite a bit about your DM -- and he can certainly kill you without being a "killer" DM.

After all, if you kill a few Hobgoblins and then retreat to recover, you should expect organized bands to come searching for you. And since they've taken the initiative, they have no reason to search for you in groups of two or three. They're hunting a great elf warrior with a magic sword, so they know they need plenty of goblin scouts to flush out their prey and more than a few heavy infantry to do the real fighting. (Those goblins always run away after throwing a dart or two. Cowards.)

I don't think of most dungeons and lairs as having effectively infinite numbers of guys, spawned in when needed for patrols. I mean, if you want to clear out a monster camp, you're pretty much going to be killing most of the guys anyway, right? Killing them when they're patroling is still killing them. So thinning out the enemy by fighting its patrols seems like a better deal than fighting everyone 5 minutes from their barracks/main camp.

Or you could attack, retreat, then attack again while their force is invested in large patrols, if you just want something in the location.