Ken Hite Re: The RPG Industry

[Ranger REG]

Right now, there is nothing marketed towards those gamers other than a couple of gaming platforms like Fantasy Grounds.

Heh.

Initially, MasterTools (now known as the downsized e-Tools) was supposed to have an online gaming feature, complete with scanned miniature pieces. But the project took so [damn] long, and gamers at the time just wanted an application tool suite for tabletop gaming. I think it was hyped too much, that and we were running out of patience.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

How right is he?

Generally on target, except...

Wargames never sold big numbers, and a top seller in the field might manage 50,000 copies in a year or two, the norm being about 5,000 or so. However, the backlist sales were steady as those retailers that stocked wargames kept a good selection on hand and would special order for customers.

Also, Ken is dead wrong about what killed TSR. While the blue-suede shoe artist thet the Blumes out in charge of sales did shove out a lot of product that was returned, and that put "hurts" on the company, and because the favorable agreement I had cut with Random House regarding returns was altered by the same management team as mentioned above, there were some big returns from the book trade, geeral mismanagement was what brought TSR into near bankruptcy in 1984. This included a warehouse with some seven million paperback books that had to be sold for scrap. No need to go into that,

When the new principal owner eventually faced another near-bankruptcy conditionm TSR had something over $26 million of secured debt, and a lot more unsecured. That wasnt due mainly to book trade returns.

He is on target about RPG sales, I believe. Most will not be large or long lived, so short-run printing is called for. Of course no RPG can thrive without interested GMs and plenty of support, so the field is not ever going to be a fertile one for general growth.

I refrain from adding my cmments regarding the D20 license and OGL.

Cheers,
Gary

 

[Mycanid]

Well ... I don't know that PC's will in fact destroy TT gaming. For me a large part of the magic came from the person to person interaction. PC's may destroy TT for some people ... perhaps. But there is a large section of rpgers who just don't get the same satisfaction out of the computer or online interface (or chat room or pbp method) that they do in the TT setting.

I am one of these sorts. Don't get me wrong - I have used pbp, chat room style, pbem, LAN gaming, 'net gaming, etc., etc. But for me there is nothing better than the person to person dynamic in the TT setting.

Also, I think the gneech is right. There is a LOT of $ out there to support rpg lit and products. Way more than when it all first started to go public on a wide level in the early 80's! (Let alone the late 70's....) But I also think scourger has an important point that there is a very large part of the market that is interested in source material for ideas.

I am actually for the method of small print runs for smaller companies. Not only more economically feasible, but if a product really takes off then they can keep doing reprints and updating material as needed based on feedback or whatnot.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Certainly there's more money in the industry...but its also a much more fragmented industry than ever before.

Whereas there were a lot of games in the early days, each with their own system, the rise of GURPS making versions of small games for their system, followed by the OGL making it possible to publish a game without going through the lengthy process of designing a viable system of your own, and e-publishing, means that cost-related entry barriers to the industry are lower than ever.

 

[Staffan]

Heh.

Initially, MasterTools (now known as the downsized e-Tools) was supposed to have an online gaming feature, complete with scanned miniature pieces. But the project took so [damn] long, and gamers at the time just wanted an application tool suite for tabletop gaming. I think it was hyped too much, that and we were running out of patience.

As I understand it, the reason they scrapped those features from MasterTools was that Hasbro sold the computer game rights to D&D to Infogrames, which meant they no longer had the rights to do that. Unfortunately, Fluid had spent a whole lot of effort on that part (I recall posts on the Master Tools mailing list where they bragged about how they had made different sound effects for all sorts of critters) instead of on the meat & potatoes of the product, the actual character generator.

Master/E Tools would probably be a good example to put in a textbook on software development. An example of how NOT to do it, that is.

 

[Staffan]

When the new principal owner eventually faced another near-bankruptcy conditionm TSR had something over $26 million of secured debt, and a lot more unsecured. That wasnt due mainly to book trade returns.

As I recall from information being made available back in -96 (or was it 97?), the book trade returns were more of "the straw that broke the camel's back." TSR already being in dire financial straits, and then Random House comes around and says "Oh, and we have these books we want to return. But we don't want more books in return, we want actual money, because the books you keep giving us aren't selling."

But I wouldn't be surprised to hear that even if that hadn't happened, TSR would have gone down the drain in a year or two. As one of the people who worked there at the time (I think it was Sean Reynolds) said: "When you're making a 50 cent loss on each book sold, you can't make up for that with volume."

 

[ChristianW]

One advantage that we have in the RPG market is that our customers -- you wonderful people -- are much more willing to buy electronic books than mainstream book readers are.

I like .pdf supplements like those put out by Ronin Arts. Good content...and SHORT. I just don't see myself purchasing 200 page core rule-books and what not.

 

[Hairfoot]

Well ... I don't know that PC's will in fact destroy TT gaming. For me a large part of the magic came from the person to person interaction. PC's may destroy TT for some people ... perhaps. But there is a large section of rpgers who just don't get the same satisfaction out of the computer or online interface (or chat room or pbp method) that they do in the TT setting.

That's right. But we can't assume that new gamers will have any exposure to TT whatsoever.

In TTRPG vs MMORPG threads there's a recurrent theme that people are discerning enough to judge for themselves which type of game they prefer. They are, but audiences can only make choices from among the options they're offered.

I fear that TT will become the Apple Mac of fantasy games: potential customers may be aware of their existence, but lifelong familiarity with another, aggressively marketed format will discourage people from investigating, until eventually TT is considered second-rate by default. And that's without a Hollywood product placement deal.

And I don't think online RP interfaces will offer any serious challenge to point/click MMORPGs. While the people using interfaces are TTers who've gone digital, we won't see anyone dropping World of Warcraft to have a crack at Fantasy Grounds.

 

[Kesh]

I like .pdf supplements like those put out by Ronin Arts. Good content...and SHORT. I just don't see myself purchasing 200 page core rule-books and what not.

I've done it, and quite happily too. Blue Rose was well worth it, as well as all its supplements. If they ever put out a 'slipcase' bundle of all three books, I'll buy the print copies. Until then, I'm perfectly happy with the PDF editions.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I fear that TT will become the Apple Mac of fantasy games

Hey! Them's fightin' words! Macintosh Æturnus!

*ahem*

I don't care for MMORPGs- I, too prefer face-to-face interactions with my fellow gamers.

And, call me luddite, but I don't care for .pdfs either. What can I say? I like books.