D&D 5E Killed Me a Lawful Stupid Paladin

[Zardnaar]

There are other ways to teach players how to be better other than 'kill the PC and gloat about it online' you realise?

We tried didn't listen.

 

[ccs]

I didn't think he would go through with it. Literally got told it was a gladiator.

Ok, but does that mean anything to him rules wise? Not everyone thinks in terms of CR.

For example, if you asked my Thur group what CR a gladiator is four people would simply stare at you.
If I told them "This man is a Gladiator"." they'd ask for more info about him. How good of a gladiator is he, appearance, have they heard of him, etc etc etc. Not once would any of them think Gladiator: CR 5, page x.

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

Well, good luck with your game. I have to be honest - I'm not sure why people play with those kinds of people, or invite them back. I get that not everywhere has tons of options for players, but it doesn't sound like either the player or the Dm had a post-mortem (literally) on what happened and why.

One thing I did kind of notice is... maybe the theme and seriousness didn't get passed along or recieved accurately by the player. I think OP mentioned the player missed Session Zero, is new, and the theme is 'happy pirates of the Caribbean'. I feel like... if those were true for me, even as an experienced player, I would be expecting a game more like John Wick's Seventh Sea where there are really only three ways to die: heroically, stupidly (diving in front of an Eisen Roaring Cannon), or when the Villain takes an action to end you while you're down. It's a system AND setting where the expectation is heroes and villains will be swashbuckling on a cliff and one will be knocked off in defeat... only to return later because a body was never found.

If the expectation is Pirates of the Caribbean, someone who didn't 'get' the nature of the DM - who I am fine with him being a LN type DM, totally good with that - enforcing consequences. If you watch the first movie, there are all kinds of cases of Jack Sparrow having total plot immunity and not having consequences hefted on him; that didn't become part of his story arc until later. But maybe there was an assumption the character could walk around being an a-hole and be reasonably safe. Again, assuming a new player who didn't get a lot of the variables and had trouble 'reading the table'

EDIT: And the first player at my table that wants to argue rules and get cocky about things is the first player that doesn't get invited back. I don't care if it's someone's brother, spouse, coworker - they can go as well. We can be friends outside the game, but ... nope. Time is too limited, and it is totally okay to have a different idea of 'fun' as GM or player - Matt Colville talked about that: there are no 'bad players'; there are only players who might not be right for your table.

 

[Oofta]

LG Oath if the Ancients following Seggotan, aquatic dragon deity from Midgard.

Forgot to mention one if the other players got so annoyed she left the room. She doesn't mind a mano a mano challenge on occasion just not over stupid pointless crap.

Just telling someone they were facing a gladiator does not necessarily convey threat level. Even though I DM and use gladiators on a regular basis, without opening up the MM I wouldn't know the CR. I probably would have been more explicit and questioned the player's actions and motivations (because of their alignment and oath) while also making clear this was probably something suicidal.

The problem I have is not really with the result. Although there does seem to be a problem with the player, I would have just dealt with it directly. The problem I have is blaming it on the PC being a lawful stupid paladin. Class and alignment have nothing to do with this story. I's not a "good" act and it violates the oath to kindle shelter, preserve and be the light.

TENETS OF THE ANCIENTS​

​

The tenets of the Oath of the Ancients have been preserved for uncounted centuries. This oath emphasizes the principles of good above any concerns of law or chaos. Its four central principles are simple.​

​

Kindle the Light. Through your acts of mercy, kindness, and forgiveness, kindle the light of hope in the world, beating back despair.​

​

Shelter the Light. Where there is good, beauty, love, and laughter in the world, stand against the wickedness that would swallow it. Where life flourishes, stand against the forces that would render it barren.​

​

Preserve Your Own Light. Delight in song and laughter, in beauty and art. If you allow the light to die in your own heart, you can’t preserve it in the world.​

​

Be the Light. Be a glorious beacon for all who live in despair. Let the light of your joy and courage shine forth in all your deeds.​

​

I have, and likely will kill off a PC at some point in the future because they do something idiotic. But I'll also just break out of the game and make sure they understand the situation because what's clear to me may not be clear to the player. If (as in this case) I think they're violating their oath and alignment I'll explain why. If they still chose to proceed then the dice will fall where they may.

 

[Flamestrike]

We tried didn't listen.

Try a different technique.

 

[jasper]

… and you came here to brag? You're relishing in this kill. Relishing in a kill is not Neutral, and arbitrarily selecting to make an encounter overpoweringly hard is not lawful. You said you decided to make the elf a CR 5 - and you pretty clearly seem to have done it when you knew there was a fight coming. This is little different than you just having an archmage pop in and PW: Kill a PC.

"Hey, look everybody, I got to kill the Lawful Stupid paladin. Ha, ha! I'm the DM and can set him up for an overwhelming challenge - so I just put in a monster that was guaranteed to kill him! And I even got him to decide to start the fight! These players will never beat me!"

D&D is an RPG, a role playing game. Characters play a role in a story. Setting up the PC to have their story end for no good reason is counterproductive.

YEs a role playing GAME. Everyone knows occasionally you LOSE. I have found out if you treat most pcs as just a star in a war movie, the players catch on. You may think your PC is Captain Kirk and will not be killed. But we all know how that worked out after 3 years, 1 cartoon and 12 movies.
Let the OP rant, vent, or brag. He gave enough red flags. One the PCS in my 1E game, thought he get away with slapping the grand mother of the king of just think King of England. This is after
1. Various folks telling the party the King keeps a pet red dragon.
2. Wife of pc tell him, Grand mother is an evil beep and was an adventurer before she married. (Hint she has PC classes.)
3. 80+ years old, wearing bracelets, a sword, and HIGHLY SPIT SHINED COMBAT BOOTS. (You can see yourself in the boots.)
He still slapped her. The party ran away to Ravenloft (I6) to get to a save place.
Or are you one the players who think all encounters must be tailored to the party.

 

[jgsugden]

Seriously, your behavior as a DM, and then as a friend, is really in question here. You're not seeing it, but you really need to reflect on what you've done and think about it from the perspective of your player. You were cruel, rude and abusive.

You decided to 'teach him a lesson', gave him an overwhelming challenge, killed his PC, then bragged about it while calling the character/player stupid. Even if the player is not on Enworld now, they may join later and come across this thread. That is so, so wrong.

I've walked away from very few D&D groups in 40 or so years of games, and I've played with a lot. This would be a situation where I'd raise my concerns as a player to the DM, give the DM a chance to reflect and apologize, and then would say this was not the right game for me and walk away clean if the DM did not do the right thing.

 

[jgsugden]

YEs a role playing GAME. Everyone knows occasionally you LOSE. I have found out if you treat most pcs as just a star in a war movie, the players catch on. You may think your PC is Captain Kirk and will not be killed. But we all know how that worked out after 3 years, 1 cartoon and 12 movies.
Let the OP rant, vent, or brag. He gave enough red flags. One the PCS in my 1E game, thought he get away with slapping the grand mother of the king of just think King of England. This is after
1. Various folks telling the party the King keeps a pet red dragon.
2. Wife of pc tell him, Grand mother is an evil beep and was an adventurer before she married. (Hint she has PC classes.)
3. 80+ years old, wearing bracelets, a sword, and HIGHLY SPIT SHINED COMBAT BOOTS. (You can see yourself in the boots.)
He still slapped her. The party ran away to Ravenloft (I6) to get to a save place.
Or are you one the players who think all encounters must be tailored to the party.

I'm one of those people (both as a player and DM) that thinks that we're here to tell a good story. What is described by the OP is not a good story. It is cruel, abusive and rude. He set the player up to fail, then called him stupid for failing. Defending that is … not a good look.

That being said, there are certainly a lot of times that the PCs will decide to do something that they should know is inadvisable based upon existing information, and I'll drop hints they should not do it, and if they do it anyways, things can go bad - including PC deaths. That is different than having them decide to challenge a NPC that has no stats, and me deciding to make it an unreasonably tough opponent just to teach them a lesson. I do not put unreasonable obstacles in place to 'teach the players a lesson'. I do not come to a public forum and call my players stupid.

 

[Mannahnin]

Wat.

You seem to be inferring an awful lot that the rest of us aren't getting out of this, jgsguden.

He's reporting on a bad play experience. This is useful fodder for discussion. Given his comments about how it derailed the last hour of the session and one of the other players was exasperated enough to walk out of the room, it does sound like Zardnaar could have found a better way to handle the situation, but I don't see any bragging or abuse here, and your comments about cruelty and rudeness seem completely unfounded.

I'm more sympathetic to the folks suggesting parting ways with the player. While we don't have full context to really judge how stupid or bad their play was, and how well Zardnaar signposted the danger, details like the player telling Zardnaar he wasn't going to take Con saves for his Concentration spells unless Zardnaar prompted him do sound like it's a bad/"abusive" player.

 

[jasper]

I'm one of those people (both as a player and DM) that thinks that we're here to tell a good story. What is described by the OP is not a good story. It is cruel, abusive and rude. He set the player up to fail, then called him stupid for failing. Defending that is … not a good look.

That being said, there are certainly a lot of times that the PCs will decide to do something that they should know is inadvisable based upon existing information, and I'll drop hints they should not do it, and if they do it anyways, things can go bad - including PC deaths. That is different than having them decide to challenge a NPC that has no stats, and me deciding to make it an unreasonably tough opponent just to teach them a lesson. I do not put unreasonable obstacles in place to 'teach the players a lesson'. I do not come to a public forum and call my players stupid.

If I want a good story, I write/read a book.
During the game the story comes from what happens during the game. Remember when Jasper killed the dragon solo, and then died when he was ambushed by the three orcs who rolled crits on him. Then he cussed because had 10 potions of healing on him.
Remember when Bob talk trashed to the boss monster, and took 102 points of damage during the next round. Then hid under a wall of force for the rest of the combat.
Remember when Bob and Bob 2 sided with Halaster during the final combat, then only attacked him when the rest of the party was down to the single digits.
It is a good look because that is how I DM. Even in a Sandbox game, as long as the DM warns the player twice he maybe over the pcs head, then killing the pc is a good story.