Kinda changing rules without telling players.

[Brown Jenkin]

Re: Re: Re: Feel the love!

How embarassing... all this time, I thought the name was Jerkin . My bad. No offense taken, I hope.

None taken. Brown Jenkin is the Iconic rat familiar of Keziah Mason from H.P. Lovecraft's "Dreams in the Witch-House" (1932; first published in Weird Tales July 1933, Vol. 22, No. 1)

 

[Renaissance Man]

That also explains why your avatar in no way resembles a close-fitting hip-length sleeveless jacket.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Re: Re: Kinda changing rules without telling players.

Follow-up question here. How precisely did you respond when he reminded you about the magic weapon?

Did you say something along the lines of "Yes, and I know how magic weapons affect DR. But you know, this sword just doesn't seem to be hurting the rat-creatures that much."

Or did you just try to continue with the combat?

-WLS

I told him very clearly the first time he said it that I heard him and knew the spell was cast. He was looking right at me when I said it so I know he heard me tell him.

After that I ignored him when he said it. I specifically did not want to give an out of scene explanation because it would ruin and the sense of confusion and apprehension over their winning or even surviving the battle.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Re: Feel the love!

Bran Blackbyrd - thanks for reattributing my words to, um, me.

DocM - "Prick"? Why the hostility? You asked the community for feedback, ostensibly in the interest of hearing what others had to say. Berating people for disagreeing with you is just poor form, and does nothing to strengthen your argument.

As I stated earlier, this is ultimately a matter for you and your players to work out. If they're happy, no harm, no foul. We can discuss the theoretics of gaming until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, it's all a matter of how much you and your players are enjoying the game.

I am curious on one point, however. Brown Jerkin asked whether you specifically informed your players in advance that the DMG and MM were off-limits to them. You responded by stating your expectations as a DM, but you didn't really answer the question. Was this point explicitly communicated to your players? Just curious.

No, but I have slammed the use of meta-knowledge several times and warned against its use in any way. The players know that if they think there is a rules problem they should talk to me out of session.

 

[WisdomLikeSilence]

Re: Re: Feel the love!

The players know that if they think there is a rules problem they should talk to me out of session.

Then I understand your annoyance with the player.

The thing is, though, that I also understand how the player might be frustrated.

I'm not going to address what *characters* can be expected to know. That's something that will vary considerably campaign to campaign, and I don't think it's the important part here.

*Players* can and occasionally do know the rules extremely well. I've certainly played in campaigns where some of the players knew the rules better than the DM. These rules set the shared world of the game. Fundamentally, they're what makes the game feel fair.

As a player, if I saw a spell being applied incorrectly, I would be concerned and likely say something. I might wonder if the DM really understood how the rule was supposed to work (let's face it, DM's do make mistakes). I'd probably remind him what I'd cast. And I'd be confused and annoyed if I felt like he'd changed the rules with no warning.

It's not that I think you were wrong to change the rule. It's that I think you would have gotten a better response from your player if you'd communicated your intentions more clearly.

Although I'd be frustrated with a DM who arbitrarily changed the rules, I'd be perfectly happy with one who said something like:

"Hey, I think we've gotten a little hidebound in the past, and we're starting to rely on out-of-game knowledge too much. I'm going to modify rules a little bit, and mix up the standard monsters. Hopefully this will help us recapture the feeling of excitement and exploration new adventurers should have. I'll be keeping things balanced, but don't be surprised if not all your spells work exactly the way you think they will, or if creatures aren't what you expect."

That way, when my spell didn't work as expected, I'd start thinking, "Oh, this must be one of the world changes he mentioned. Better pay attention to the DM's description and try to figure out what's going on." Instead of thinking "Hey, he does know I cast magic weapon, right? Does he know how it affects DR? Maybe I should remind him again..."

I don't think this is a huge incident, but you might want to explain a little more of your rules philosophy to your players. It could save a lot of frustration and annoyance all the way around.

-WLS

 

[Bran Blackbyrd]

Finally, a change to Lycanthrope DR really ISN'T imo "a basic ground rule of how things work" - it's not 'Dungeons & Lycanthropes' you know...

Why is it that no one seems to get this?
Changing a creature's DR, and changing the way DR works are two completely different things. We're not talking about one creature here, we're talking about EVERYTHING that has DR.

 

[S'mon]

Why is it that no one seems to get this?
Changing a creature's DR, and changing the way DR works are two completely different things. We're not talking about one creature here, we're talking about EVERYTHING that has DR.

You're right, I don't get it.

The IN GAME visible effect was that wererats were now immune to +1 weapons. That there might have been larger 'off screen' changes is less relevant.

I think possibly what you're getting at is that you regard the 'magic plusses always trumps substance vulnerability' as a fundamental rule (changed in 3.5e, back to the 1e appropach)?
I don't agree - certainly it's not a **PHB** rule, as DocM has repeatedly pointed out.

What would be a fundamental rules-change the PCS would know of would be if the magic weapon & GMW spells no longer bypassed DR at all in the manner of a true enchanted blade. If that was the case the spellcaster would _probably_ know it - depending on how common DR-possessing monsters were in the gameworld. Even then a 2nd level fighter (proud victor of 13.3 moderate encounters) probably wouldn't know it IMO.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Things seem to be heating up. Let's please all try to not make snippy comments at each other while forming our arguments. Thanks you.

 

[Zhure]

Why is it that no one seems to get this?
Changing a creature's DR, and changing the way DR works are two completely different things. We're not talking about one creature here, we're talking about EVERYTHING that has DR.

This isn't really directed at you, Bran, so please don't take it as a personal attack, I just felt this was a very relevant quote.

I think the problem is while it may be a sweeping rules change, from the perspective of the characters, it's only a change with regards to the lycanthropes they've faced. Since the characters in question were relatively low level and not necessarily vastly knowledgeable about DR, KN: Arcana, or KN: Lycanthropes, then there's a good chance they don't even know something is amiss.

Where I would side with the players on this particular thing is if the PC was built specifically as either a lycanthrope expert or some sort of "slayer" who would have intimate knowledge of slaying werewolves or similar creatures. In that case, the character (and thus the player) should know in advance.

Greg

 

[Murrdox]

You seem to be a very picky DM, Doc. If you didn't insult everyone all the time, I'd be much cooler with you, as I'm all for keeping the players in the dark when necessary, and limiting meta-gaming to the bare minimum.

Basically, you think of the DMG as a "DM ONLY" tool, which the players should be completely ignorant of.

I really don't agree with this. The information in the DMG is put there instead of the PHB because players don't need to have access to it, and the DM does.

It's not a game like Deadlands, which specifies that information in the Marshall's guide is for the Marshall only.... but in this game, the entire world is ignorant of a lot of the goings-on.

It isn't necessarily so that characters don't know anything in the DMG... it's given to the DM because in a playing session, characters aren't going to NEED it. Players don't need treasure generator tables, they don't need distance modifiers to their spot check, and they don't need the full list of magical items.

Just because a rule is in the DMG - I just don't think that means the players should be completely ignorant of it... such as DR.