Kip up

[Shallown]

Yeah Ape he was counter tripped and was using his balance to oppose according to the new balance stuff in Complete adventurer.

Souljourner,
I don't thinks automatic and that is my biggest point. He could fail. I know he has a good chance that he won't ever be stopped but I can think of several ways he could be stopped though or at least forced to roll isnteadof taking 10.

I admit he did slap a lot of points into tumble but since he still gets to use those points for a tone of other things and he at least has a chance of standing for free and not as a move which even if I rolled a 20 (We use the 1= -10 and 20 =30 rule for most d20 rolls) I couldn't do.

CRGreathouse
well he had only made one attack but had already moved like 10 feet which is part of his dervish dance. So he didn't have the choiceof only making one attack and then a move he had commited to a full round action just as if he had say charged.


So here some other ways to look at it.

So you let him kip up taking 10 and he has a 36 (Target is a dc 35). A cleric who tried to hit him with a bestow curse missed and still has it ready (I think that spell is treated as a charged spell like shocking grasp if not substute another spell with similiar affects) and hits him during his attack of opportunity and he now has a -6 to dex. and fails his Kip up? what happens the penalty for failing is it cost him a movement action which he doesn't have.

This is what I want to avoid is a house rule to deal with this.

But in the end Its not to big a deal since he is on my side and I want to keep his character alive as well.

Later

 

[Scion]

I'd just do it like this:

Try to kip up as a free action, make the roll.
If it succeeds he gets up as a free action.
If it fails the character has the option to use a move action to stand 'anyway'.
If he does not have a move action to use then he is stuck on the ground.


And thats it, I think it takes care of all of these situations, including some crazy situation where an opponent takes away the characters ability to kip up without him knowing about it.

Edit: Just found a copy of the book, I think it would actualy go like this:

Declare wanting to use tumble to stand up as a free action, make check. If successful then stand up as a free action, if not then nothing happens.

'Free Stand: With a DC 35 Tumble check result, you can stand up from prone as a free action (instead of a move action). This use of the skill provokes an aoo as normal.'

given this I dont believe that there is the need to have a move action free. It is a skill check to see if you can then stand up as a free action, not attempting to stand up and then trying to do it as a free action. I dont see any reason to force the character to use a move action to stand up.

 

[dedicated]

uhh.. can you provide me with the actual wording of the feat? it makes a big difference.

But..from what's been posted I'd say he can use it, but if he fails he has to stand up with his next move action, and would be treated as prone until he does so.

 

[kanithardm]

The kip up ability as printed in Complete Adventurer allows a character/creature to stand up as a free action as long as they make a high DC tumble check. Failure to succeed the check means standing takes a move action as normal. Here is my dilemma:

I have a Dervish in my group that can automatically make the DC of the tumble check to free stand. Can he use this ability during his devish dance?

One of my players made the arguement that since failure requires that you expend a move action to stand that you need to have a move action left in order to use the kip up ability. He used an analogy to make his point: In order to play a game you must pay $5. If you win the game, you get your money back. Just because you will automatically win the game does not mean that you don't have to have $5 to play.

Your opinions?

I like the PCs idea, but it really doesn't apply. You don't NEED to use the move action($5) to use the kip up(play the game), but it uses the move action($5) if you fail.

 

[Shadeus]

What's also interesting about doing it mid-dervish dance is I think the dervish dance (it's a PrC ability, not a feat) doesn't provoke AoOs from movement. So despite kip up provoking an AoO normally, because it's part of the dervish dance, should it not provoke an AoO? I would say yes, because it's an AoO from movement.

 

[ThirdWizard]

You do provoke AoO from a Dervish Dance. Well one unless multiple opponents are involved.

 

[Nellisir]

Declare wanting to use tumble to stand up as a free action, make check. If successful then stand up as a free action, if not then nothing happens.

This makes the most sense to me. If he happens to fail the Tumble check, then he can either A) use a move action to stand up, just like the normal rules, or B) stay on his butt at no cost. If he doesn't have a move action (say, when he's in the middle of dervish dancing), then he automatically stays on his butt if he fails.

Failing the check doesn't use a move action; it just means that he has to use a move action to stand up that round.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[FireLance]

What's also interesting about doing it mid-dervish dance is I think the dervish dance (it's a PrC ability, not a feat) doesn't provoke AoOs from movement. So despite kip up provoking an AoO normally, because it's part of the dervish dance, should it not provoke an AoO? I would say yes, because it's an AoO from movement.

No, a dervish provokes AoOs normally in a dervish dance. It's not like Spring Attack. However, he may use Tumble normally to avoid the AoOs.

A minor quibble about terminology. "Kip Up" is a thief-acrobat PrC class ability that allows him to stand up from prone as a free action without provoking an AoO. The advanced use of the Tumble skill is called Free Stand, and it does provoke an AoO. Unlike Fast Mount/Dismount (Ride skill), where the rules state you must have a move action to use in case of failure, Free Stand does not impose a similar restriction.

So, I'd rule that the dervish can stand up from prone as a free action, but provokes an AoO while doing so, and he can't Tumble to avoid the AoO.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Thanks for all the replies.

Here is the root of my question: the player in question wishes to use the free-stand (thanks for the terminology correction!) as part of a 'undefeatable' trip combo. The character has 4 attacks a round with two weapon fighting and proceeds to dance, use maximum expertise, and fight defensively for a whopping big AC (around 40 IIRC). His attack bonus, of course, goes into the toilet, but is still high enough hit a touch AC more often that not. So the player attempts to trip, his AC saves him from the AoO, and he gets his attempt. Even if he fails and is counter tripped, he just stands for free using the free stand rules. While he doesn't accomplish much in the way of damage with this tactic, my big bad fighter types seem to spend an awful lot of time on the ground where thier tactical choices are few and most incur an AoO for standing.

I have no problem with the tactic, but the free stand seems to have removed all of the drawbacks from it.

Firelance: Im away from my book, but I do believe that failing a free stand means that it takes a move action to stand as normal, and that it is listed as such.

 

[Len]

While he doesn't accomplish much in the way of damage with this tactic, my big bad fighter types seem to spend an awful lot of time on the ground where thier tactical choices are few and most incur an AoO for standing.

The lesson learned by the big bad fighter type in my group is, Don't Stand Up. Just subtract 4 from your power attack and fight prone.