Kip up

[Ferret]

The kip up ability as printed in Complete Adventurer allows a character/creature to stand up as a free action as long as they make a high DC tumble check. Failure to succeed the check means standing takes a move action as normal. Here is my dilemma:

I have a Dervish in my group that can automatically make the DC of the tumble check to free stand. Can he use this ability during his devish dance?

One of my players made the arguement that since failure requires that you expend a move action to stand that you need to have a move action left in order to use the kip up ability. He used an analogy to make his point: In order to play a game you must pay $5. If you win the game, you get your money back. Just because you will automatically win the game does not mean that you don't have to have $5 to play.

Your opinions?

A better analogy is that you need £5 to play the game and if you loose you must pay £15. You don't loose a move action then regain it, you take a free action and possibly must use a move action.

 

[Scion]

A better analogy is that you need £5 to play the game and if you loose you must pay £15. You don't loose a move action then regain it, you take a free action and possibly must use a move action.

I dont see anything that says you are forced to stand up if you fail to stand up as a move action. The character tried to do it fast and failed to do so, he is still on the ground.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I dont see anything that says you are forced to stand up if you fail to stand up as a move action. The character tried to do it fast and failed to do so, he is still on the ground.

The problem with that:

"I attempt to stand as a free action with Tumble."
"You fail. Wanna stand as a move action instead?"
"Nah, I'll just stay prone. Now... I attempt to stand as a free action with Tumble."

-Hyp.

 

[Stalker0]

"Nah, I'll just stay prone. Now... I attempt to stand as a free action with Tumble."

-Hyp.

You can easily pull the "only so many free actions allowed by the DM" clause on that one.

 

[Nellisir]

Punctuation, man, punctuation. It's where it's at.

Would You allow someone to try to free stand at the beginning of the round and if they failed choose not to stand having just having used a free action and not the move as the ability states?

Yes., but if he fails he doesn't "choose" not to stand. If he fails to free stand, he's prone. Assuming that was the first thing he did that round, he could then a)make an attack, and then stand up (standard & move action); b) stand up & then attack (move & standard actions); c) stand up and move (double move action); d) make a full attack (full attack action).

Cheers
Nell.

 

[Scion]

The problem with that:

"I attempt to stand as a free action with Tumble."
"You fail. Wanna stand as a move action instead?"
"Nah, I'll just stay prone. Now... I attempt to stand as a free action with Tumble."

-Hyp.

He could do that anyway, the dm needs to place limits on how many times it can be used in a round. 1 sounds good.

Now, you could argue that the ability is not limited to once per round and that is true. But it also doesnt require having a move action remaining to pay for it if you fail.

6 of one, half of the other ::shrugs:: I'll go for the way that makes sense to me. No need for a move action left, just a guy trying to stand up fast, if he fails he is still prone and may try again next round.

 

[Jhulae]

He could do that anyway, the dm needs to place limits on how many times it can be used in a round. 1 sounds good.

Now, you could argue that the ability is not limited to once per round and that is true. But it also doesnt require having a move action remaining to pay for it if you fail.

6 of one, half of the other ::shrugs:: I'll go for the way that makes sense to me. No need for a move action left, just a guy trying to stand up fast, if he fails he is still prone and may try again next round.

That makes sense to me, especially since the rules for Free Actions states that the DM can limit them to what makes sense.

One try to stand up as a free action per turn seems fair and reasonable to me. If it's failed, the character can stay on the ground until the next turn (when they can try again) or use a move action to stand this turn.

 

[ThirdWizard]

He could do that anyway, the dm needs to place limits on how many times it can be used in a round. 1 sounds good.

I wish I had thought of that.

 

[Snowy]

so would you say its a swift action or just a free action you can only attempt once a round?

This is only partially tongue in cheek, I've been think about the threads on talking and the often shown strawmans about doing a bazillion free actions a round and, unsurprisingly, have decided that codifying things as swift actions should happen more often, then you have a greater limit on how many actions (lowercase as its not the dnd term being used) you can do.

 

[Shallown]

I still come back around to the wording of Free stand which says the price for failure is paying a move to stand not remaining prone. Remaining prone is not an option for free stand as an action, Paying A move action (as normal to stand) is.

Just my logic

Later