Knight with Spiked Chain. Broken?

[Lord Zardoz]

The only thing I think is anywhere near broken about this is that the Spiked Chain threatens both near and far squares. The ability its self I have no problem with. What is really mean is Fighting a Hydra in a Swamp (10 foot reach with 6 AoO per round, and the rules are a bit hazy if its one attack per Opportunity or if each head can strike on a single Opportunity).

But lets get away from that for a moment.

I think that the way the Knight is designed is to make it a Melee attacker who is very difficult for other melee attackers to deal with. If you want to stick to the rules as written, even this can be dealt with. All you have to do is choose actions that do not amount to a Full Attack.

- Get out of Melee and make yourself a shiny new pin cushion
- Ready an action to Disarm or Sunder the next time the Knight attacks you
- Make your single attack a Grapple, which forces him to not use his reach weapon.
-- End the grapple on your turn and pick up his chain with your action
- If you have the option, use Ride By Attack or Leap Attack to avoid the AoO
- Bull Rush him into a corner so he cannot step away (may take a while)
- Use your own Reach weapon and even the playing field a bit. Let him step back, attack anyway.
- Dont fight fair. Poison your weapon. His Fort save sucks anyway.
- Role play it a bit. Challenge him to a 'fair fight' bare handed. You could make the case that he would go for it, what with the Chivalry and all.
-- Cheat anyway.

Knight with 10 foot reach that also threatens adjacent can be difficult to handle. But going toe to toe with a Raging Barbarian is not exactly easy either. And while were at it, those Monks are way too good at taking down spell casters.

Each class has something it is good at, and some classes have things that add up to very nasty synergies (Fly + Improved Invis + Blasting spells is a classic example if something that is hard to deal with if you are not prepared for it).

END COMMUNICATION

 

[PallidPatience]

Eh. I really don't think it's broken. There are ways to avoid AoOs for movement, and there are ways to attack from afar. At the same time, does he get AoOs against invisible foes? Does he get AoOs against foes who can fly over him? By the level he has the feats to spend on this (EWP (Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, Stand Still), he's facing people who can possibly Spring Attack, turn invisible, summon creatures into his area, and otherwise make this tactic difficult to pull off. Did I mention Web? Web can do it, too. So its counters are myriad and easily achieved, and it's really a niche situation anyway. Not many combats that my character has been in have been in tight areas, and the one situation in which my AoO trip-monkey managed to really do well in was a lot of fun. In short, it's powerful, but highly situational. You have to be playing NPCs and monsters stupid enough to let his one thing work over and over again.

 

[wildstarsreach]

say its a polearm thats a knights weopen i dont see anything wrong with useing his weopen and the only way for him to do that is take a 5'ft step back?

so what you guys are saying about code of honor is that if im a knight and useing my trusty polearm and someone gets close to me so i cant hit him with my polearm i have to say well i guess i need to take a beating because its not honorable to step back and fight back?

and as for the question do i think that the tatic is fair.... I dont have a problum with it other classes have thier way of defending themselfs each class can deploy some form of physical defence. like a wiz/sor casting slow and moveing and blasting over and over or getting the feat that lets you take 2 move actions in one round and still cast a spell.

Reading the code of honor I believe forbids this. Fame and glory, what honor is ther in testing yourself against an enemy that can't attack you with yours and his full abilities. If you get full attack and he doesn't, you would be in violation of the code.

 

[FireLance]

Reading the code of honor I believe forbids this. Fame and glory, what honor is ther in testing yourself against an enemy that can't attack you with yours and his full abilities. If you get full attack and he doesn't, you would be in violation of the code.

Actually, the PHB2 knight's code only has the following "restrictions":

1. Don't use your flanking bonus.
2. Don't attack a flat-footed enemy.
3. Don't deal lethal damage to a helpless enemy.

More to the point, the knight is using his own skill and training to hamper his opponent, in the same way that he can use Shield Block to prevent a foe's attack from hitting, or Daunting Challenge to leave weak foes shaken. A tactic can be effective without being dishonorable.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Actually, the PHB2 knight's code only has the following "restrictions":

1. Don't use your flanking bonus.
2. Don't attack a flat-footed enemy.
3. Don't deal lethal damage to a helpless enemy.

More to the point, the knight is using his own skill and training to hamper his opponent, in the same way that he can use Shield Block to prevent a foe's attack from hitting, or Daunting Challenge to leave weak foes shaken. A tactic can be effective without being dishonorable.

I understand what you are saying. If the character were good, intent would lead to other tactics. I would see this in and LE aligned character.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Reading the code of honor I believe forbids this. Fame and glory, what honor is ther in testing yourself against an enemy that can't attack you with yours and his full abilities. If you get full attack and he doesn't, you would be in violation of the code.

How far do you take this?

If your party cleric casts Doom on your opponent, do you call a truce until the duration expires?

If that same cleric dispels the enemy's buff spells, do you give him time to recast them?

Which feats are 'honorable' to use, and which are dishonorable? If pure skill, and not trickery or guile, puts you in a position where you can use a missile weapon but your opponent cannot close to melee range, is it honorable to avail yourself of the opportunity? (Posit a besieged fortress, with the attackers bringing up a ram to attack the gates. Can the knight shoot the men manning the ram?)

-Hyp.

 

[FireLance]

I understand what you are saying. If the character were good, intent would lead to other tactics. I would see this in and LE aligned character.

Good characters can't trip? Stun? Use Spring Attack or Ride-By Attack? Toss a tanglefoot bag and throw alchemist's fire at a stuck opponent? Cast a sleep spell and coup de grace a helpless enemy? A tactic can be effective without being evil, too.

 

[Mistwell]

Hmm. Would these boots help against this tactic, or is the ability not the equivelent of light or dense rubble?

Boots of the Mountain King (MIC Pg. 78) 1500 gp.
While wearing the boots of the mountain king, you can move more easily than usual over rough and difficult terrain. These boots allow you to ignore increase movement costs and skill check DC increases for light and dense rubble. In addition, you can move up stairs and slopes at normal speed and run or charge downhill without making a Balance check (DMG 89). These boots require no activation.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hmm. Would these boots help against this tactic, or is the ability not the equivelent of light or dense rubble?

The ability causes terrain to be considered difficult.

If the Mountain King boots work on, for example, light undergrowth - that is, light or dense rubble are examples only - then they'll help. If they don't work on light undergrowth - that is, light or dense rubble defines what the boots help with - they won't help with the Knight's threatened area.

-Hyp.

 

[werk]

Reading the code of honor I believe forbids this. Fame and glory, what honor is ther in testing yourself against an enemy that can't attack you with yours and his full abilities. If you get full attack and he doesn't, you would be in violation of the code.

I think it's the same code that let's you impose penalties on your opponents, giving then an unfair disadvantage against you while forcing them to engage with you in combat.

Unless I remember knight incorrectly...