Knight with Spiked Chain. Broken?

[Deset Gled]

A human-sized opponent can only occupy one square at a time.

1. A single square can have more than one type of terrain.

2. Even if the square only has one type of terrain, and that type is "difficult", you can still only move as fast as the difficult terrain will allow. Since difficutly terrain doesn't allow a 5' step, you can't step out of the difficult terrain. The text I quoted specifically limits your speed based on the square you occupy.

 

[moritheil]

Okay, my conviction that the spiked chain knight is suboptimal aside, I feel obligated to point out that Hold The Line and Stand Still on a spiked chain fighter would take care of all this "barbarian moving forward" nonsense without requiring the character to be a knight at all.

Barbarian tries to close with fighter, incurs AOO 10' off, gets hit by AOO and stops moving 10' away from fighter.

Fighter's turn: Full attack. 5' step. Now 15' away.

Barbarian tries to close with fighter, incurs AOO 10' off, gets hit by AOO and stops moving 10' away from fighter.

As with the knight in the example above, this tactic is best defeated by simply not mindlessly closing with the enemy. The fighter has no honor code, so everyone should agree that he can do all this. How is this any more broken when a knight does it? It might be "unfair" that the opponent doesn't get a chance to hit the knight, but it would be similarly unfair if the knight had an AC that an opponent couldn't hit, and that is perfectly legal.

How much of this debate is simply people not articulating their preconceieved notions about archetypes, and expecting the rules to support those notions without seeing what the rules explicitly deny?

 

[Merkuri]

Since this thread isn't directly about terrain and movement, I started a new poll on the "which square counts" issue here.

 

[Plane Sailing]

So, is this broken? Remember, there are other ways for a knight to gain reach that can be just as broken. Potions of enlarge person, or simply being an Ogre knight would also do it. Don't forget the lance is also a reach weapon. If you have a reach weapon and improved unarmed strike, you also threaten both your adjacent square and 10' away...

i think it is broken (basically because of that knight ability which wasn't properly thought through by the designers).

It is broken because a PC with this set up could walk through 90% of encounters getting full attacks vs their single attacks. PC's end up with a lot of options for how to take on different threats, but most monsters/creatures only have a very limited range of options. Only very specific solutions will overcome this problem (and it is a problem because knight+reach can automatically do it from 3rd level onwards, while nobody else can)

 

[takasi]

It is broken because a PC with this set up could walk through 90% of encounters getting full attacks vs their single attacks.

While it is a very powerful feature (and may be "broken") I disagree with 90% of encounters.

Consider creatures that have one huge single attack. Also consider flying creatures (and creatures with burrow). A paladin in one of my games had Vanguard Treads that would have bypassed this. Ranged attackers (including spellcasters) negate this tactic too. Having a number of mooks come in (and assume the knight does not have combat reflexes, since his dex is probably lower and he doesn't get as many feats as a fighter) to surround the knight will allow a boss to get in and do full attacks too. So maybe 50% (probably less), but definately not 90%.

This ability allows a knight to have a considerable advantage against melee combatants, which is exactly what a knight should be trained for. It's powerful, but is it really more powerful than the other classes in the PHB2 (Beguiler and Duskblade)?

 

[Egres]

You can always disarm - sunder - trip - grapple this annoying knight.

 

[moritheil]

I don't think this specific combination is broken at all, because as I mentioned, you can do much, much worse things to balance using that ability. That said, the knight ability itself might be a little broken.

 

[tzor]

I should also like to point out, according to Murphy's law if you base your attack on constantly retreating 5' back you will eventally back yourself over the cliff, or if indoors against the wall. If your DM has ever read OOTS you're guarenteed this tactic won't work long term.

 

[Mistwell]

I don't see much of a problem with it; there are always effective tactics and counters throughout D&D. Antimagic field is sheer hell on spellcasters, but that's where Orbs of Force and Barbarians come in.

In this case, the answer there is to handle the knight from a range, or step a Martial Adept into the fray (who can do about as much damage as a full-attacking warrior, but only takes a standard action to do so).

There are inexpensive magic items in the Magic Item Compendium that lets you move normally in difficult terrain. I think evolutionarily speaking, if Knights are popular in your world, then such barbarians will commonly obtain that magic item (boots I believe).

 

[wildstarsreach]

At 3rd Level, the Knight in the Player's Handbook 2 gets an ability called defensive bullwark. It states that any creature begining its turn in your threatened area treats the area you threaten as Difficult Terrain.

The effects of difficult terrain say: Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. (Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares.) You can’t run or charge across difficult terrain.

Enter the Knight with the spiked chain. He threatens a 10' radius around himself. Suppose a barbarian charged the knight to attack him. The knight would get an AOO for the barbarian exiting a square he threatened, but the barbarian doesn't care, he's used to incurring AOOs from charging, and besides, next round he'll do his full attack action, and tear the knight up... WRONG.

On the knight's turn, he takes a 5' step back, and full attacks the barbarian. On the barbarians turn, he tells the DM he takes a 5' step and full attacks the knight. The DM says, "No, that square is considered difficult terrain. It takes you 10' of movement to move there, and therefor, you cannot take a 5' step into it." Frustrated, the barbarian takes the 10' of movement then necessary to attack, and incurrs and AOO again, because he left a threatened square [and not with a 5' step or tactical withdrawal]. The barbarian takes his licking, then gives the knight a single attack. The knight then takes a 5' step back, and full attacks the barbarian again, and the process repeats itself until the barbarian dies or retreats.

So, is this broken? Remember, there are other ways for a knight to gain reach that can be just as broken. Potions of enlarge person, or simply being an Ogre knight would also do it. Don't forget the lance is also a reach weapon. If you have a reach weapon and improved unarmed strike, you also threaten both your adjacent square and 10' away...

Use the Kusari-gama from OA and you get the same effect without having to take the short haft feat. You can do from range or 10' and up close and personal. It can be really broken IMO but is defeatable if you use ranged and magic attacks.