Knockback rules

[FrankTrollman]

The thing I really don't like is the fact that it comes up way too often for large creatures. I mean, when two gargantuan creatures are fighting each other they totally smack each other so far that they never get to full attack - it's just charge-bounce.... charge-bounce.

The amount of damage required should be an absolute based on the size of the target. Remember that bigger creatures have more hit points and inflict more damage in melee.

So it should only take like 5 points of damage to knock back a rat - which means that humans with baseball bats should be able to do it. But it should take more than 5 points of damage to throw a human around - thereby ensuring that giant octopusses don't simply throw everyone all over the place.

Once you are in the range of knocking someone back, you should get +1 to your knock-back roll for every five points you exceed the knockback threshhold - so devastating attacks do send people flying and powerful normal sized creatures can potentially do them.

On the sneak attack knock back problem - how about discounting any and all "precision based damage"?

-Frank

 

[Kershek]

A gargantuan creature would have to do 40 points of damage to knock the other gargantuan creature back 5 feet, since one isn't larger than the other.

If a regular rat is diminuative, then, using my original rules, it would only take 5 points of damage to knock it back 5 feet, like you want.

 

[FrankTrollman]

And yet it would take 20 points of damage for a cat to knock back a rat. More importantly, it would take 20 points of damage for an Ogre to knock back a human, and only 20 points of damage for a Titan to knock back an Ogre.

But while 20 points is nearly a stretch for an ogre - a Titan is liteally incapable of not doing 20 points of damage. Their warhammers do 4d6+27 damage before magic or power attacks. The average is 41 points on the generic unequipped version, so Titans throw themselves around like bowling pins.

The damage by size difference scale doesn't work - it needs to be an absolute amount of damage for each size category. I suggest basing it on how much damage a creature of that size noramlly does so that it takes an extraordinary (but achievable) hit from a creature of its size to toss a creature around.

-Frank

 

[Darklone]

There's a KPG feat named Push who does a similar thing...

 

[Kershek]

The damage by size difference scale doesn't work - it needs to be an absolute amount of damage for each size category. I suggest basing it on how much damage a creature of that size noramlly does so that it takes an extraordinary (but achievable) hit from a creature of its size to toss a creature around.

That would make it extraordinarily complex to create a rule, unless you have an idea on how to do it.

 

[FrankTrollman]

That would make it extraordinarily complex to create a rule, unless you have an idea on how to do it.

Not at all. You just say:

Fine 1
Diminutive 5
Tiny 10
Small 15
Medium 20
Large 30
Huge 45
Gargantuan 60
Colossal 80

Or something like that. Just a chart, like the Death From Massive Damage chart - only more rounded so that Titans aren't instant killing each other every time they hit each other.

The specific numbers are just right off the top of my head - and as it took me about 45 seconds to think them up, I'm sure they could be improved.

-Frank

 

[RangerWickett]

Or you make it like a Bull Rush attempt, so that the knockback is based on Strength (force) not damage (injury). You can kill someone by stabbing a needle into their eye, but that doesn't have that much force. You can also ram a rubber ball with an 18-wheeler. The ball wouldn't take any damage, but the force would knock it back a long distance.

 

[darkmentor]

There was a post about dragons tossing adventurers around like flies or something. Am i the only one who has no problem imagining that a beast thats over 100 feet long and wieghs enough tons to make an elephant look like baby SHOULD be able to toss human beings around like bugs? no matter how good of a swordman they are? Thats a matter of force versus target wieght not skill so it shouldnt matter what the guys level is. And as for 40 points being no big deal. phaw. even at 200 hp the dragon gets at least 4 attacks with claws, bite and tail so the fighter is dead in 2 rounds. Thats under 12 seconds. Sounds pretty scary to me. And if you think play balance is an issue then the key is to remember 2 things: the game is unbalanced now for huge creatures, they arent nearly as dangerous as something that size would be in real life, and description. If you say " the giant hit you for 30 points and you fly 20 feet and take another 10 points". yeah the player will bitch. But if you say " the giants club lands a solid blow across your chest lifting you off your feet, the world blurs by as you try to think through the pain. and then there is a painful crunch as you land hard on your back and wait for the world to stop spinning" then quietly tell them the damage and how far they went. Players wont bitch. because its a story and something interesting and descriptive happened. Peaple get too caught up in the numbers and too little in describing whats happening. Thats why i dont use miniatures very often either. This is D@D not monopoly. Its a fantasy story and the most important thing is that interesting and cool stuff happens. Not that the rules are inforced all the time.

 

[Ferret]

Sorry for my previous attack of flipancy...

Two things to comment though, Why not restrict the type of damage needed to bludgeoning, or disallow peircing attacks from Knock-backing. Allthough you have jousting don't you.... Hmm....

And also restrict it to effect creatures two sizes smaller then you, or lessen the maximum range.

 

[Aaron2]

Ok, another addition - knockback can only occur with a melee weapon

I'd limit it to bludgeoning attacks. It also might make sense to limit it to just Slam attacks. That way a dragon wouldn't knockback with a bite.


Aaron