Knockdown & Improved Trip

[Darklone]

If you use the Knockdown feat, does your opponent get an opportunity to counter-trip you if you fail the trip check? Can you drop your weapon in order to avoid being counter-tripped? The feat in the SRD lacks some critical explanations (and Errata).

Well, it doesn't say anything about counter trip... if it would, they would mention it.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Counter-tripping is always allowed unless the feat/source specifically says it doesn't work, since the countertrip is really just part of the initial trip action.

Also, since only the trip weapons allow you to drop your weapon in response to a countertrip, I'd say that Knockdown does not inherently grant you the ability to do this.

So, it seems to me, that when you do over 10 points of damage, and choose to try to trip your opponent, you're leaving open the chance that you may fail and wind up prone yourself, in sharp contrast to Improved Trip/trip weapons. Seems...mostly...balanced.

 

[KarinsDad]

So, it seems to me, that when you do over 10 points of damage, and choose to try to trip your opponent, you're leaving open the chance that you may fail and wind up prone yourself, in sharp contrast to Improved Trip/trip weapons. Seems...mostly...balanced.

Course, if the 10+ points of damage kills the opponent, you really do not have to worry about a counter-trip.

Doing it the Improved Trip way, you have to worry about the counter-trip before getting to do any damage.

 

[Philip]

No, you do not.

Works like this:

Use Improved Trip - your primary effort is to trip them. If you are successful, you can smack 'em.

Use Knockdown (or, rather, just make a normal attack) - your primary effort is to smack 'em. If you are successful by a certain margin (deal 10+ points of damage), you can trip them.

What it does not do is let you smack 'em, do enough damage to trip them, then smack 'em again because they were tripped.

Knockdown is nice because it expands your options. For instance, normally to trip things you either need to be using a tripping-capable weapon, or you're using your body. With Knockdown you can use anything, you just need to smack 'em hard enough. But no, it doesn't let you effectivly double-up on attacks. That would be just a wee bit broken.

You never 'use' Improved Trip to trip anyone. You use a Trip attack to trip someone. Improved Trip gives you special advantages on your trip roll and after you trip someone. You cannot choose not to receive +4 from Improved Trip if you use the special attack called Trip. Improved Trip triggers if you perform a Trip attack.

Knockdown gives you a free Trip attack. If you take it, Improved Trip triggers. If someone falls as result, Improved Trip triggers.

I am all for the balance argument, and the 'they forgot to include the errata when they included it in the SRD' argument. I agree with brokenness, but not with the 'you cannot by the rules'

 

[Hypersmurf]

Knockdown gives you a free Trip attack. If you take it, Improved Trip triggers. If someone falls as result, Improved Trip triggers.

It triggers... and allows you to make a melee attack as if you had not used your attack to trip.

The attack you used to trip was a free trip attack. If you had not used it to trip, you would not have been able to do anything.

Therefore, Improved Trip gives you a melee attack that cannot be used to do anything.

You'd still get the +4 on the opposed Strength check for the Knockdown trip attack, though.

-Hyp.

 

[Philip]

It triggers... and allows you to make a melee attack as if you had not used your attack to trip.

The attack you used to trip was a free trip attack. If you had not used it to trip, you would not have been able to do anything.

Therefore, Improved Trip gives you a melee attack that cannot be used to do anything.

You'd still get the +4 on the opposed Strength check for the Knockdown trip attack, though.

-Hyp.

Hyp:

1. Knockdown gives you a free trip attack.
2. Improved Trip gives you an extra melee attack, as if you had not used your attack to trip.

What I am reading wrong?

Note that Knockdown doesn't give you a free opposed Trip roll, it gives you a Trip attack. You still must hit with a touch attack and if you hit you must make the opposed Str check to trip your opponent.

 

[Hypersmurf]

1. Knockdown gives you a free trip attack.
2. Improved Trip gives you an extra melee attack, as if you had not used your attack to trip.

Normally, a trip attack is made in place of a normal melee attack.

I take the attack action; I get one attack, which I could use to make a melee attack, a ranged attack, a grapple, a trip, or a disarm. I choose to trip. I succeed; Improved Trip says "Pretend you didn't use that attack to trip, and use it for a melee attack instead".

I make an AoO; I get one attack, which I could use to make a melee attack, a ranged attack, a grapple, a trip, or a disarm (but not a ranged attack). I choose to trip. I succeed; Improved Trip says "Pretend you didn't use that attack to trip, and use it for a melee attack instead".

I successfully hit someone for 10+ points of damage. I get a free trip attack, which I could use to... trip. Naturally, I choose to trip. I succeed; Improved Trip says "Pretend you didn't use that attack to trip, and use it for a melee attack instead". But the attack that I used to trip can't be used to make a melee attack. It can only be used to trip.

If Improved Trip said "You gain an extra melee attack", it wouldn't be an issue. But it says "You gain an extra melee attack, as if you had not used your attack to trip"... and that is where the problem comes. If I didn't use that attack to trip, there's nothing else I can do with it, unlike if I'd tripped with an attack from an attack action, full attack action, charge action, or AoO.

-Hyp.

 

[Philip]

If Improved Trip said "You gain an extra melee attack", it wouldn't be an issue. But it says "You gain an extra melee attack, as if you had not used your attack to trip"... and that is where the problem comes. If I didn't use that attack to trip, there's nothing else I can do with it, unlike if I'd tripped with an attack from an attack action, full attack action, charge action, or AoO.

-Hyp.

You are saying that we should read Improved Trip as '..as if you didn't use your melee attack..', adding the word melee to attack, even though it doesn't say it? And then use the specific differentation between melee attack and trip attack to rule out the extra attack?

Either you read it literally, and acknowledge that the Improved Trip feat doesn't say melee attack (and thus could be any type of attack) or you read it more loosely, but then you shouldn't hold on to the specific difference between attack and melee attack in both description as well. It now seems like you are having your cake and eating it too.

And even if your reading is right, can you use the extra 'melee attack' to Sunder for example? Since apparently Trip and Sunder are not melee attacks in your reading....

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You are saying that we should read Improved Trip as '..as if you didn't use your melee attack..', adding the word melee to attack, even though it doesn't say it?

Can you trip with a non-melee attack?

 

[Philip]

Can you trip with a non-melee attack?

You can only Trip with a Trip attack. Trip attacks are a subset of melee attacks.

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

In other words, a Trip attack is a melee attack, but that wouldn't solve Hypersmurf's problem. He proposed that a Trip attack isn't a melee attack, because then 'as if' clause of Improved Trip wouldn't give you an additional attack.