Knockdown & Improved Trip

[Hypersmurf]

You are saying that we should read Improved Trip as '..as if you didn't use your melee attack..', adding the word melee to attack, even though it doesn't say it? And then use the specific differentation between melee attack and trip attack to rule out the extra attack?

No.

Let's say I have a dagger fighter, with a feat vaguely similar to Cleave - if he deals damage to an opponent with a dagger he is holding, he gets an extra ranged attack against a different opponent with that dagger.

If he uses the attack action to make a melee attack on someone, his Dagger Throw triggers, and he gets to throw it.

If he uses the full attack action to make a melee attack on someone, his Dagger Throw triggers, and he gets to throw it.

If he uses the charge action to make a melee attack on someone, his Dagger Throw triggers, and he gets to throw it.

If he uses an AoO action to make a melee attack on someone, his Dagger Throw triggers, and he gets to throw it.

Now let's rewrite the Dagger Throw feat so it's more like Improved Trip. if he deals damage to an opponent with a dagger he is holding, he gets an extra ranged attack against a different opponent with that dagger, as if he had not used the attack to stab the first opponent.

If he uses the attack action to make a melee attack on someone, his Dagger Throw triggers, and he gets to make a ranged attack as if he had not used the action to make a melee attack.

If he uses the full attack action to make a melee attack on someone, his Dagger Throw triggers, and he gets to make a ranged attack as if he had not used the action to make a melee attack.

If he uses the charge action to make a melee attack on someone, his Dagger Throw triggers, and he gets to make a ranged attack as if he had not used the action to make a melee attack. However, the attack that the charge action grants cannot be a ranged attack. Thus, he cannot throw the dagger... because the attack he would use to do it is not allowed to be a ranged attack.

If he uses an AoO action to make a melee attack on someone, his Dagger Throw triggers, and he gets to make a ranged attack as if he had not used the action to make a melee attack. However, the attack that an AoO grants cannot be a ranged attack. Thus, he cannot throw the dagger... because the attack he would use to do it is not allowed to be a ranged attack.

The wording of the feat means that the attack one uses to throw the dagger is effectively the attack that you originally used to stab, and derives from the same source, and thus carries the same restrictions. If someone provokes an AoO, I cannot throw my dagger at them; it's something I can't do with that attack. So when I get to use that attack twice - once to stab, and once to throw - the throw can't happen.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You can only Trip with a Trip attack. Trip attacks are a subset of melee attacks.

Exactly! You can only Trip with a Trip attack... and with a Trip attack, you can only Trip.

You can substitute a Trip attack for a melee attack, but you cannot substitute a melee attack for a Trip.

Example 1 - I drop an orc with my halberd, and my Cleave feat says I can make an immediate melee attack against an opponent within reach. The rules for Trip say that you can substitute a melee attack for a Trip... so I can Trip another orc with my Cleave.

Example 2 - I hit the ogre for 15 points of damage with my greatsword, and my Knockdown feat says I can make a Trip attack against him. I cannot say "Instead of tripping, I'll just deal greatsword damage again". I can substitute a trip for a melee attack (since trip is a subset of melee attacks, as you say), but I can't substitute a melee attack for a trip (since trip is a subset of melee attacks).

And when you use Knockdown, and Improved Trip triggers, you're trying to make a melee attack by using the attack you gained from Knockdown, as though you didn't use it to trip. But a trip attack can only be used to trip.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

And when you use Knockdown, and Improved Trip triggers, you're trying to make a melee attack by using the attack you gained from Knockdown, as though you didn't use it to trip. But a trip attack can only be used to trip.

I think the interpretation that a Knockdown attack trips, just like a Trip attack trips, allows for it to work.

I think you cannot claim that only one intrepretation can be made of the phrase "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt".

With a Knockdown attack, you are using your attack for a trip attempt, just like you are doing it with a Trip attack.

There is no one sole intrepretation of this sentence, hence, the reason WotC had to errata it.

 

[Legildur]

You can only Trip with a Trip attack. Trip attacks are a subset of melee attacks.

Bolas.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think the interpretation that a Knockdown attack trips, just like a Trip attack trips, allows for it to work.

The Knockdown attack works fine. It's the followup Improved Trip attack that doesn't.

It's the same reason that Improved Trip won't actually let you hit someone again after you trip them via Elusive Target, or if an awakened dog or wolf trips someone using its Trip special attack. The attack that they'd be trying to make the extra melee attack with can only be used to Trip.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

The Knockdown attack works fine. It's the followup Improved Trip attack that doesn't.

I think from a linguistic perspective, your argument is sound.

However, the interpretation, although easy for you to see, is not easy for some people to see. In fact, I know that if I tried to explain this concept to some of my players, I would be spending hours doing it.

Hence, it is critical in these types of situations for WotC to be explicit (this is not explicit, this is obscure and easy to miss). Bringing the errata over would have been clear. Not doing so is not clear (although I realize it is crystal clear to you, you are also not an average interpreter of game rules).

Course, that is one of the reasons why I come to the Rules Board. To pick up on the more obscure rules.