Knocked prone

[Olgar Shiverstone]

There's a simple fix:

Knocked Prone. Save ends.

 

[Deadstop]

There's a simple fix:

Knocked Prone. Save ends.

That actually keeps you knocked prone longer than without the "Save ends," though. You don't roll a saving throw until the end of your next turn, when you could just stand up as a move action on your turn.


Deadstop

 

[Mengu]

Any knock down mechanic, by design should involve only rolls for the attacker (whether it's a single attack as in the case of the Hill Giant, or a conditional state as in the case of the Gnoll Demonic Scourge). Dwarves already get a save to avoid being knocked down thanks to Stand Your Ground. This is a race feature and fits the exception based design. There could be other feat/class/race features which give you saving throws against being knocked down, or allow you to stand up easier.

I like that there will be a lot of pushing, sliding, knocking prone going on in combat. It significantly enhances the dynamic combat environment.

 

[Lurker59]

The prone condition grants all melee opponents combat advantage and imposes a -2 penalty on all attacks by the prone character. The character also gains +2 to all defenses against non-adjacent ranged attacks. If I remember correctly it costs a move action to stand and doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. Overall it doesn't seem as rough as it is in 3rd.

 

[Stalker0]

This is a lashback from the big change between 3e and 4e, and its completely understandable. 4e's conditions are a new paradigm.

In 3e, conditions are often very hindering, but usually fairly hard to do. Things like stunning require special conditions, often a save is required AFTER the creature makes a hit, things like that. Prone requires trip attacks, which often require extra feats in order to do well.

In 4e, conditions are generally less debilitating. Being prone in 4e doesn't hinder you as much for a couple of reasons:

1) Losing your move isn't as big a deal. In 3.5, a fighter's main power comes from the full attack. In 4e, any attack can be a big power. So if I stand up and then wack the guy with a power, I haven't lost much. In 3.5, I could lose 2 or 3 attacks having to stand up.

2) Prone has weaker penalties, -2 compared to -4.

3) Combat lasts longer. Prone normally lasts only 1 round. In 3e, combats were often 3-4 rounds, and many times lower than that at high levels. In 4e, combats seems to last 5-8 rounds. So being prone for one round isn't as bad.

Because of this, 4e makes conditions easier to do. PCs have powers that add conditions, and many monsters do as well. However, the conditions are often short lasting and not that debilitating. It makes combat more dynamic.

I think both models have their merits, though I like 4e's approach to this. In that spirit, nothing should be done about a giant's attack proneing you.

 

[Celebrim]

I understand the 4e model, but the rat 'fink' DM in me sees those movement forcing effects as 'save or die' without the save.

Whoops, you've been knocked into the spiked pit.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the bridge.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the ziggurat.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the tower.
Whoops, you've been knocked down the stairs.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the acid.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the whirlpool.
Whoops, you've been knocked over the waterfall.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the boiling tar.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the superheated geyser pool.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the piranna infested river.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the boat.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the sky ship.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the cliff.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the lava.
Even, whoops, you've been knocked prone into the scorpion swarm.

If these are fairly typical locations in my campaign (and they are), then I think you can see why I think players deserve a save vs. these sort of movement conditions. In fact, as I play it now, players generally get two saves to avoid being moved even after being hit. The first to stand firm and the second to grab on to something before falling off. That way I can have fights on the rope bridge, in the canoe, on the flowstone above the icy cold pool, in the geyser filled chamber, on the scaffolding where the temple is being constructed, on the floating logs in the saw pond, on the narrow stairs to the hermitage and all the other dangerous locations my combats tend to occur in. People still end up falling off things, but its not an automatic thing for either the PC's or the monsters.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I think I'm most disappointed that they made all these changes to make combat more cinematic but didn't fix (or relegated to feats) some standard features. Any ability that knocks someone down should have a DC after it (from the giant article: on a hit, the target is pushed 2 squares and knocked prone) and the DC should be the necessary Str or Dex roll to avoid falling:

and knocked prone (DC 30)

Anyone making the strength check just does not fall. Anyone making the Dex check perhaps flips out of the way or kips up immediately.

DC would be size, str and level based (but I don't know how to guess at this for 4e, yet).

I know players don't want their PCs to be knocked down, made small (treated like a rubber ball).

 

[D'karr]

I understand the 4e model, but the rat 'fink' DM in me sees those movement forcing effects as 'save or die' without the save.

Whoops, you've been knocked into the spiked pit.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the bridge.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the ziggurat.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the tower.
Whoops, you've been knocked down the stairs.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the acid.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the whirlpool.
Whoops, you've been knocked over the waterfall.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the boiling tar.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the superheated geyser pool.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the piranna infested river.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the boat.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the sky ship.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the cliff.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the lava.
Even, whoops, you've been knocked prone into the scorpion swarm.

If these are fairly typical locations in my campaign (and they are), then I think you can see why I think players deserve a save vs. these sort of movement conditions. In fact, as I play it now, players generally get two saves to avoid being moved even after being hit. The first to stand firm and the second to grab on to something before falling off. That way I can have fights on the rope bridge, in the canoe, on the flowstone above the icy cold pool, in the geyser filled chamber, on the scaffolding where the temple is being constructed, on the floating logs in the saw pond, on the narrow stairs to the hermitage and all the other dangerous locations my combats tend to occur in. People still end up falling off things, but its not an automatic thing for either the PC's or the monsters.

Well, I don't see much of a problem as most forced movement can not force you into a location you could not move normally. And in the cases we have seen any forced movement that would put you into such a location usually allowed a save. We saw this with Escape from Sembia.

I'm not really too worried.

 

[Celebrim]

Well, I don't see much of a problem as most forced movement can not force you into a location you could not move normally.

So, forced movement is harder to do when the person has less purchase on the surface you are trying to knock him across?

Besides, this seems a pretty arbitrary distinction. What does it mean in context anyway?
For example, getting to the bottom of a cliff is easy. Anyone can do it. Easy as sliding off a greased log.

And in the cases we have seen any forced movement that would put you into such a location usually allowed a save. We saw this with Escape from Sembia.

So, forced movement is harder to do when the person has less purchase on the surface you are trying to knock him across, and that person only really tries to resist being moved when it requires to most atheleticism to avoid it? The first time I give a player an option to save or not get knocked off the cliff, he's going to want an option to save anytime he'd prefer not to be moved.

I'm not really too worried.

I have relatively little worries about 4e's balance.

 

[Mort_Q]

It's a question of how you picture the powers working. Forced movement is an abstraction of giving the opponent choices where moving is the easiest / safest option for them.

It's a choice, perhaps, of getting sliced and diced or moving a square or two.

Moving them off a cliff is obviously a different choice, and not the easiest / safest one at that. Thus a save (or other mechanic).

I like to think of 4e combat in terms of blocking a scene for a movie myself. YMMV.