Knocked prone

[D'karr]

So, forced movement is harder to do when the person has less purchase on the surface you are trying to knock him across, and that person only really tries to resist being moved when it requires to most atheleticism to avoid it? The first time I give a player an option to save or not get knocked off the cliff, he's going to want an option to save anytime he'd prefer not to be moved.

It's not any harder to do than any other time, but this seems to prevent the save or die without the save that you were complaining about.

That is up to you if the DM lets himself be abused in that manner that seems like a problem with the DM and players, not the rules.

 

[Mirtek]

The prone condition grants all melee opponents combat advantage and imposes a -2 penalty on all attacks by the prone character. The character also gains +2 to all defenses against non-adjacent ranged attacks. If I remember correctly it costs a move action to stand and doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. Overall it doesn't seem as rough as it is in 3rd.

Actually it's more rough as it is in 3.x.

In 3.x you suffer a -4 penalty to AC/Attack (and gain +4 vs. ranged attacks) but you aren't treated as been flanked or denied your dex modifier.

So while your penalty is 2 worse than in 4e, you do not get sneak attacked for being prone in 3.x

 

[Mengu]

I'd think the solution to getting knocked off a cliff/tower/rocker, is a saving throw (or two) to "hang on." This actually should have more to do with being pushed/slid than being knocked prone. And in any case, any time the players have a chance to fall to their deaths, it's the DM's job to provide a way out (unless they intend for a deadlier encounter). Maybe they get to grab onto the ledge, maybe the cliff face has some vines to hold onto, or maybe it just so happens there is a stack of hay bails lined up, where they got knocked off the roof top.

Any way you look at it, such a slip is going to put the character out of the combat at best for a round or two, at worst till the end of the encounter. Regardless, I see this more as a chance for greater cinematics, than providing the character with a way to not be affected by the attack at all, or die. "Something happens" is always more fun than "nothing happens."

 

[keterys]

The rules already give you a save to hang on when tossed off a cliff or into lava, etc.

 

[Cirex]

The prone condition grants all melee opponents combat advantage and imposes a -2 penalty on all attacks by the prone character. The character also gains +2 to all defenses against non-adjacent ranged attacks. If I remember correctly it costs a move action to stand and doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. Overall it doesn't seem as rough as it is in 3rd.

I think it does provoke opportunity attacks. From the 2.0 PrRC:

PRONE: You are at -2 on all attacks.
All enemies gain Combat Advantage against you.
You move at half speed. Standing up is a move action that provokes
Opportunity Attacks.

Maybe Shadowfell owners can show the exact wording on it.

 

[djdaidouji]

Has anyone said simply avoid the edge? Its all in knowing your enemy. If you figure out he has the power to push you around, its your responsibility to maneuver yourself to a safer position on your own time. And its not like they push you out of nowhere, they need to get past your defenses. (I'm not sure about this, though. Is there a power that just moves people without a problem?)

Edit for more thoughts.:
Obviously this makes a rope bridge harder to fight on, but just think of it as more dangerous. It shouldn't be taken lightly that you could fall into lava at any moment, so even if it means provoking AoO from everyone on the field, you would be best to hustle your ass to the safest place you can. By all means, allow players to make checks to grab onto the edge after they've fallen, but they've already failed their save against being moved when the enemy got past their defense.

Also, remember that combat is dancing. One attack roll is actually five swings of the sword. Thinking of it like this, a power that slides the enemy is the power of stepping in ways to force your enemy to move back while fighting. Perhaps it will turn out that anyone can do that, but only those with the proper power can do it without penalty.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

For the record: According to Keep on the Shadowfell:

Prone
Grants Combat Advantage to Melee Attackers
Gives you +2 Defences against Range
Gives you -2 to Attack
You don't Flank
Standing is a move action that does NOT provoke Opp Attacks

And getting forced off a cliff is a saving throw, in which success puts you prone in the closest square to going over, and failure is... over you go.

Fitz

 

[mmu1]

Well, I had a enlarged person-spiked chain-bulls strengthed-improved trip attack character trying to trip huge bears. It wasn't funny at all. (The success rate was really high, in most cases close to 90%).

Huh? Between Improved Trip, Enlarge Person and Bull's Strength, you get all of +14 to your trip attempt. You'd need an unaugmented Str of 26 (since you're already getting enhancement and size bonuses to Str) on top of that to even equal something like a dire bear. (which has +10 str, +8 size and +4 for having 4 legs, +22 total)

Sure, you could do better with something like a Barbarian of a non-core race with a level adjustment, but then we're hardly talking about a typical character... and the whole thing depends on spells which only last a minute per level.

Anyway, hyperbole is bad for you.

 

[Mengu]

Prone
Grants Combat Advantage to Melee Attackers
Gives you +2 Defences against Range
Gives you -2 to Attack
You don't Flank
Standing is a move action that does NOT provoke Opp Attacks

And getting forced off a cliff is a saving throw, in which success puts you prone in the closest square to going over, and failure is... over you go.

Thanks Fitz, good to know.

On a mildly related note, Human Perseverance for +1 to saving throws is looking better and better every day.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I understand the 4e model, but the rat 'fink' DM in me sees those movement forcing effects as 'save or die' without the save.

Whoops, you've been knocked into the spiked pit.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the bridge.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the ziggurat.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the tower.
Whoops, you've been knocked down the stairs.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the acid.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the whirlpool.
Whoops, you've been knocked over the waterfall.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the boiling tar.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the superheated geyser pool.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the piranna infested river.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the boat.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the sky ship.
Whoops, you've been knocked off the cliff.
Whoops, you've been knocked into the lava.
Even, whoops, you've been knocked prone into the scorpion swarm.

If these are fairly typical locations in my campaign (and they are), then I think you can see why I think players deserve a save vs. these sort of movement conditions. In fact, as I play it now, players generally get two saves to avoid being moved even after being hit. The first to stand firm and the second to grab on to something before falling off. That way I can have fights on the rope bridge, in the canoe, on the flowstone above the icy cold pool, in the geyser filled chamber, on the scaffolding where the temple is being constructed, on the floating logs in the saw pond, on the narrow stairs to the hermitage and all the other dangerous locations my combats tend to occur in. People still end up falling off things, but its not an automatic thing for either the PC's or the monsters.

It's not that difficult to alter those scenarios so that the penalty for falling is more in line with the difficulty of the encounter. Damage levels for the environmental hazards can be adjusted, additional ledges (not immediately apparent from the battleground) added. Not using deep pools of lava on level 1 characters, that sort of thing.

And if you really have lots of combats on rope bridges above certain depth, how come the bridges never get cut? Would you allow a save to avoid a fall to certain death when the entire party is halfway across a rope bridge and the ropes are severed? Or do your players and bad guys just not do that due to some kind of etiquette?