D&D 5E KO with melee attacks only...?

[Herobizkit]

Re-reading the Basic PDF, it occurs to me that it specifically calls out that only melee attacks can be changed from lethal to non-lethal.

From a narrative and perhaps even 'realistic' standpoint, this makes sense to me. But poor archers and spellslingers...

Has anyone hand-waived this rule for their own campaigns? I know 4e basically did this.

Reason I ask is because I'm running a game with a decidedly lighter, cartoonish tone but where bad things can and do happen (kinda Ghostbusters-y in tone) and it just seems a shame that half our team can no longer effectively KO opponents... like how a simple Ray of Frost turns our timid Halfling into a cold-blooded killer.

I guess I could just call it "Superhero rules on" - as long as the players check on the enemies after they've fallen, they live, otherwise they don't...?

Thoughts?

 

[Prism]

Re-reading the Basic PDF, it occurs to me that it specifically calls out that only melee attacks can be changed from lethal to non-lethal.

From a narrative and perhaps even 'realistic' standpoint, this makes sense to me. But poor archers and spellslingers...

Has anyone hand-waived this rule for their own campaigns? I know 4e basically did this.

Thoughts?

I'm glad its only melee. We would all groan when in 4e the wizard would on the fly turn some of the fireball into non lethal damage to keep one of the monsters alive. I think its the area attacks I have most problem with. Single target ranged attacks probably aren't too bad

As another option you could rule that monsters get death saves, and if you get to them quickly enough you could stabilize. I think it suggests that for certain NPCs anyway

 

[DEFCON 1]

As another option you could rule that monsters get death saves, and if you get to them quickly enough you could stabilize. I think it suggests that for certain NPCs anyway

This is exactly the reasoning I'd suggest. DMs usually handwave away the death saves of monsters and just say they're dead at 0 HP to save time and PC action economy (because otherwise PCs spend all their actions on Coup De Graces for downed opponents)... but if you want to keep alive that last monster for interrogation, there's no reason why the death saves need to be handwaved away regardless of the attack that downed him (unless the DM just wants to be a jerk about it).

 

[Agamon]

This is exactly the reasoning I'd suggest. DMs usually handwave away the death saves of monsters and just say they're dead at 0 HP to save time and PC action economy (because otherwise PCs spend all their actions on Coup De Graces for downed opponents)... but if you want to keep alive that last monster for interrogation, there's no reason why the death saves need to be handwaved away regardless of the attack that downed him (unless the DM just wants to be a jerk about it).

There's already a device for PCs to take out NPCs without killing them, use melee. Death saves are for PCs. NPCs are only there to be interacted with, not to try and save when they fall.

There's a reason why the line, "Why'd you shoot him? We needed him alive," is one of the most used in movies.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

Using missile attack to KO is a matter of tone, not rules balance. This particular rule is an expedient guideline to avoid a complicated KO system and yet keep the possibility of PCs KOing baddies should the need arise. The melee limitation is simply to make it a bit more realistic and palatable for a default style of D&D. If it doesn't work for the tone of your campaign you can easily change it without affecting game play as a whole.

 

[Ritorix]

I'm glad its only melee. We would all groan when in 4e the wizard would on the fly turn some of the fireball into non lethal damage to keep one of the monsters alive. I think its the area attacks I have most problem with. Single target ranged attacks probably aren't too bad

Yeah I'm with you there, magic kills. I tend to think of vancian-style spells as formulas that can't just be modified on the fly without special training.

But a nonlethal arrow doesn't make much sense either. If the archer has a supply of special blunted arrows or something, sure, but a typical arrowhead is going to cut right through.

My players ran into this issue head-first in an all-wizard game I'm running. Magic Missile left a smoking corpse, attempts to Charm and Sleep were foiled (elven targets!). They had to resort to bonking the last victim over the head. Which turned out to be not too difficult, even wizards can hit something in 5e with the bounded accuracy.

 

[Warbringer]

It's kinda hard to use the blunt end of an arrow, but I've always let my players decide if they want to do lethal or non lethal damage.

One rules addition is the enemy gets a fort save to avoid going unconscious at 0, just like PCs.

(In my games death is at 150% hit points and you can stay fighting to -50% if you stay conscious)

 

[DEFCON 1]

There's already a device for PCs to take out NPCs without killing them, use melee. Death saves are for PCs. NPCs are only there to be interacted with, not to try and save when they fall.

There's a reason why the line, "Why'd you shoot him? We needed him alive," is one of the most used in movies.

I was commenting on the point above me that *if* you wanted to be able to knock people out using something other than melee... that technically you could via the 3 deaths saves rule attributed to NPCs.

We already know you can do it via melee, as that was what the original post was talking about. The question was whether knocking out via other attacks was possible. And yes... due to the fact that the DM *can* use the death save rules for monsters (even if you normally don't), that is how you could knock someone out with ranged attacks. You drop the monster to 0, then get in and stabilize him before he dies.

And there's nothing so odd about that. You shoot the guy with an arrow... he drops unconscious and begins bleeding out (which DMs usually handwave by saying he's just dead so that the party doesn't need to "finish off" the monsters after they drop)... and then you go in hopefully within 3 rounds and roll a WIS (Medicine) check.

 

[SuperTD]

I'm quite happy to let non-melee class knock out opponents, as I can just reflavour knocking out into some other form of incapacitation. When a player wants to knock an enemy out, they usually actually want to down an enemy without killing them, which can be done with spells and arrows, e.g, the arrow goes through an extremely painful point and downs the enemy, or I just say that when they hit 0 they are no longer able to fight.

 

[Agamon]

I was commenting on the point above me that *if* you wanted to be able to knock people out using something other than melee... that technically you could via the 3 deaths saves rule attributed to NPCs.

We already know you can do it via melee, as that was what the original post was talking about. The question was whether knocking out via other attacks was possible. And yes... due to the fact that the DM *can* use the death save rules for monsters (even if you normally don't), that is how you could knock someone out with ranged attacks. You drop the monster to 0, then get in and stabilize him before he dies.

And there's nothing so odd about that. You shoot the guy with an arrow... he drops unconscious and begins bleeding out (which DMs usually handwave by saying he's just dead so that the party doesn't need to "finish off" the monsters after they drop)... and then you go in hopefully within 3 rounds and roll a WIS (Medicine) check.

Okay, that's fair. I'd personally just go with DM fiat, but the rules for PCs could be used, too.