D&D General Kobold Press Going Down a Dark Road

[Snarf Zagyg]

Unless of course you're not young and they've moved on from you.

Well, yeah. But guess what?

If you want to play 5e, you can! Or, heck, you can play AD&D. Or OD&D. Or any of a number of retroclones. If you don't like the new hotness, don't play it- but don't complain about the kids having a good time on the lawn. Let them enjoy themselves.


...just like you used to.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

There are always exceptions to any trend, and people always trot them out to refute a point.

Who is the exception? You or I? You made a sweeping statement on behalf of and entire population that I happen to be a part of claiming it it viewed such and such thus.

A producer of a product, does not really care about any individual customer, they care about populations of customers. They mostly care about the population that will translate fandom in to purchases, in the case of a hobby provider like WoTC.
They run popularity contests for features added to the game, so we know for a fact that they care about the consensus opinion of those that fill in their UA surveys.
We also so know (from a recent online interview in Jeremy Crawford) that they monitor the online commentariat. And that same interview strongly implied that they do other unspecified market research.

I would love the know the age profile of the new 5e cohort. If they were teens and college age I nearly would have expected the game to have peaked. If they are older and more demography broadly based then this thing could have real legs.

As for the old timers like you and I, we are liking the Mountain Men watching the wagons on the Oregon Trail.
Hell, some of us may be more like the native population watching those same wagons.

 

[mamba]

I have no doubt those things generated visibility and interest, but you generally need to have a group that you're playing with in order to create sustained engagement. Of course, you could abet that even without a group by also making the books interesting to read on their own

Having a grognard in a group is not a requirement for a group to form. When I started playing in the 1e days, I simply started a group and it was the first time for all of us. Pretty sure that is frequently the case. Even when it is not, it can be someone who has played the game for a few years and is not a grognard...

As to what grognard means, it probably is loosely defined. To me it is someone who has been around a while and longs for the days past. Maybe by now there is such a thing as a 4e grognard, my interpretation allows for it, but on Youtube I mostly encounter OSR ones.

"Someone who enjoys playing older war-games or roleplaying games, or older versions of such games, when newer ones are available." is a definition I found, that mirrors mine pretty well. In any case they are unhappy with the current game and long for an earlier edition. So the point of them introducing players to not-5e instead of 5e still stands.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

As to what grognard means, it probably is loosely defined. To me it is someone who has been around a while and longs for the days past. Maybe by now there is such a thing as a 4e grognard, my interpretation allows for it, but on Youtube I mostly encounter OSR ones.

Given the etymology of grognard (grumbling), I think that 4e fans are definitely eligible for AARP grognard status.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, yeah. But guess what?

If you want to play 5e, you can! Or, heck, you can play AD&D. Or OD&D. Or any of a number of retroclones. If you don't like the new hotness, don't play it- but don't complain about the kids having a good time on the lawn. Let them enjoy themselves.


...just like you used to.

Again, this is a group hobby. You can't play without players, and the further away they move from older preferences, the harder it is to find players that will engage in something that isn't the new hotness.

 

[mamba]

Given the etymology of grognard (grumbling), I think that 4e fans are definitely eligible for AARP grognard status.

agreed, it's just that I do not encounter them anywhere but on this forum

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If that second sentence is what you are saying, then I am not sure how it follows from the Kobold Press post. OGL is not mentioned anywhere, and what is mentioned does not have anything to do with that controversy

Black flag was created in response to to OGL controvery. So they are now trying to get as many people from that event as possible. By telling them it is the only way to keep it in print, they might get one or two more customers.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Black flag was created in response to to OGL controvery. So they are now trying to get as many people from that event as possible. By telling them it is the only way to keep it in print, they might get one or two more customers.

One D&D and Black Flag seem to be going in rather different directions from the 2014 rules. I don't blame for them for characterizing 6e as a different game that is replacing 5e.

 

[Reef]

Again, this is a group hobby. You can't play without players, and the further away they move from older preferences, the harder it is to find players that will engage in something that isn't the new hotness.

Well, yeah. Welcome to being old. I don’t expect the new hotness to cater to me. I’ve long come to terms with the fact I’m no longer the prime target demographic for…well, anything anymore.

If D&D suddenly turns into a game I don’t like (hasn’t happened yet), I’ll still have all my previous editions. And maybe my group won’t be full of young whippersnappers, but im guessing I’ll still be playing with the people I have right now.

But complaining that they are making changes to attract young people at the expense of us old folk would be like me screaming about the lack of hair metal on my MTV…

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Again, this is a group hobby. You can't play without players, and the further away they move from older preferences, the harder it is to find players that will engage in something that isn't the new hotness.

That's a you problem, not a D&D problem.

I have to admit, though, it does take some chutzpah to say that unlike all the other TTRPGs out there, D&D is in trouble because people have a lot of difficulty finding other people to game with. So, there's that?

 

[BrokenTwin]

Again, this is a group hobby. You can't play without players, and the further away they move from older preferences, the harder it is to find players that will engage in something that isn't the new hotness.

You're not wrong, and it sucks, but it's something that happens in pretty much any social activity. Most of my favorite RPG systems I'm entirely unable to find a group for. Mainly because I'm old fashioned enough to want to play in person, but even if I was willing to play online with strangers the pickings are slim.
WotC's D&D will always be aimed at attracting a young, fresh audience. In a decade (or less), I fully expect to see the people brought in by things like Critical Role to be complaining that Hasbro no longer caters to their interests or playstyle.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's a you problem, not a D&D problem.

I have to admit, though, it does take some chutzpah to say that unlike all the other TTRPGs out there, D&D is in trouble because people have a lot of difficulty finding other people to game with. So, there's that?

I expect the majority of existing players to move on to 6e next year, mostly because that's what people do. When that happens, there will be far fewer 2014 5e players available.

But thanks for reinforcing my concern that the game I love has moved on from me, and that's apparently a good thing I should embrace.

 

[Reef]

I’m not sure why you think your situation is new or unique. I’m sure some of the OSR crowd felt that way when 3e came out. By your logic, we should have never moved on from interations of 1e just to keep them happy?

Any long term community changes over the decades. The surest way for a company (or product) to die is to keep catering to a smaller and smaller (and older) core audience. If D&D isn’t focussed in attracting young players, who is going to be buying their game in 20 years?

You don’t have to embrace it, but you probably should work at accepting it. It’s the way of the world.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I expect the majority of existing players to move on to 6e next year, mostly because that's what people do. When that happens, there will be far fewer 2014 5e players available.

But thanks for reinforcing my concern that the game I love has moved on from me, and that's apparently a good thing I should embrace.

Look, I get that this is "your thing." Moping about D&D, complaining that no matter what is said, OneD&D will never be 5e (even though you've complained about being tired of the base 5e options before).

But this is just special pleading. "Why isn't exactly what I want the thing that WoTC is making??!!!??" If life was fair, and I was king of us all, then OneD&D would be the best and most Bard-less edition ever set in Greyhawk. But guess what? It won't be.

Right now we are living in a golden time. It is easier than ever to find like-minded people and play with them on-line. There are innumerable resources at your fingertips that you can use to play any prior edition, or all sorts of other TTRPGs. There are thousands (THOUSANDS!) of indie games for you to try. If you want to go back to some halcyon golden age, well, there is a ton of intellectuals pushing forth with OSR and West Marches styles as well. The overall player base for TTRPGs is bigger than it has ever been.

If you don't want to embrace what the majority of people are doing, there has never been a better time to do your own thing- which means that we can all be happy and charitable to the people that are coming up now and enjoying the games that we enjoyed, and, moreover, we should appreciate that this is their thing now too, and they get to play the things they like.

Be kind, rewind, etc.

 

[Marc Radle]

Black flag was created in response to to OGL controvery.

That's actually not true. Project Black Flag was being worked on as far back as July 2022 - at least 6 months before the OGL situation.

Please take a look at the full text on the Project Black Flag FAQ page:
Project Black Flag - Kobold Press

In particular ...

So Project Black Flag isn’t a new game?​

In July 2022 the Kobold Press team started work on Project Black Flag. Then, In January 2023, as our biggest fears were coming true, Kobold Press knew that Project Black Flag’s timeline had to change. Quickly.

In our initial announcements, it was necessary for Project Black Flag to be a new Core Fantasy Roleplay system. However, once SRD 5.1 was released into Creative Commons, it was suddenly clear that we could build on the same foundation that so many people already know and love. As a bonus, Project Black Flag can streamline the new building while ensuring a thriving future for 5th Edition.

 

[Alzrius]

Having a grognard in a group is not a requirement for a group to form.

I never said otherwise; I only put forth that sustained engagement with the hobby requires a group (though I'm sure some exceptions exist), and that making the books engaging unto themselves can help ease that burden.

So the point of them introducing players to not-5e instead of 5e still stands.

And I maintain that's a comparatively minor issue (with the caveat I mentioned before about how it's beneficial for WotC to maintain a closer orbit to D&D); someone who's become enamored of TTRPGs is far more likely to try a slightly-different-yet-largely-similar TTRPG than if they've never tried the hobby at all in favor of, for example, video games.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I’m not sure why you think your situation is new or unique. I’m sure some of the OSR crowd felt that way when 3e came out. By your logic, we should have never moved on from interations of 1e just to keep them happy?

Any long term community changes over the decades. The surest way for a company (or product) to die is to keep catering to a smaller and smaller (and older) core audience. If D&D isn’t focussed in attracting young players, who is going to be buying their game in 20 years?

You don’t have to embrace it, but you probably should work at accepting it. It’s the way of the world.

Well, I personally would be pretty happy with iterations on B/X, BECMI, and 1e forever, but I never expected that.

 

[BrokenTwin]

Tangentially related, I've never done a proper West Marches game, but man I would love to give it a try at some point. Rotating cast of players, characters leveling up independently from each other, a story that develops more from exploration and the direct results of the players' actions... I have no idea if I would hate it in practice, but man i want to try it. But again, preferring in-person play means it's probably never going to happen for me. Especially not those decade plus games that are the stuff of grognardian legends.

To be fair to @Micah Sweet , I don't think they believe their situation is "new or unique". I think they're just lamenting that the popular gaming culture is moving on without them, and their heyday of gaming may be leaving with it. And to be blunt, yeah, it's something that was bound to happen eventually, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck when it does. What's a good change for one person can be a bad change for another, but change will always happen whether we like it or not. I'm happy that the new generation of gamers is coming into the TTRPG hobby (I've taught most of my nieces and nephews to play, and they're now making up their own games and systems without me), but I am sad that the gaming that I most enjoyed is most likely behind me now.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Look, I get that this is "your thing." Moping about D&D, complaining that no matter what is said, OneD&D will never be 5e (even though you've complained about being tired of the base 5e options before).

But this is just special pleading. "Why isn't exactly what I want the thing that WoTC is making??!!!??" If life was fair, and I was king of us all, then OneD&D would be the best and most Bard-less edition ever set in Greyhawk. But guess what? It won't be.

Right now we are living in a golden time. It is easier than ever to find like-minded people and play with them on-line. There are innumerable resources at your fingertips that you can use to play any prior edition, or all sorts of other TTRPGs. There are thousands (THOUSANDS!) of indie games for you to try. If you want to go back to some halcyon golden age, well, there is a ton of intellectuals pushing forth with OSR and West Marches styles as well. The overall player base for TTRPGs is bigger than it has ever been.

If you don't want to embrace what the majority of people are doing, there has never been a better time to do your own thing- which means that we can all be happy and charitable to the people that are coming up now and enjoying the games that we enjoyed, and, moreover, we should appreciate that this is their thing now too, and they get to play the things they like.

Be kind, rewind, etc.

Its mostly the setting content to be honest. I would like to see that all opened on the DMsGuild. Don't care what WotC does after that.

 

[Bolares]

There are always exceptions to any trend, and people always trot them out to refute a point.

But how do you know if you are the exception or the trend? I'm also in the demographic they "made 5e for" but I like the direction they are taking post tasha's...