bedir than
Hero
They have a first month free trial right now
D&D General Kobold Press Going Down a Dark Road
- Thread starter jerryrice4949
- Start date
Parmandur
Book-Friend
Kyle Brink made it quite clear: as long as there is a print market (and Amazon sales rankings shows the market is there), WotC will service it. More digital-print combo.deals seems likely, over time, but not replacement.
jerryrice4949
Hero
Makes sense especially with the movie about to drop. If I were then I might even offer 60 days free to get people hooked. But I am not on D&D Beyond and don’t have any plans to join. I am a print guy but I don’t have any issue with them drawing other people into D&D Beyond.
mamba
Hero
Not as far as compatibility is concerned
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
1e and 2e are very compatible. Are they the same game? Are they the same edition?
mamba
Hero
Pretty much. D&D, AD&D and 2e were very compatible and modules were used interchangeably frequently. 2e is a cleaned up 1e, not something entirely new like 3e, 4e or 5e were. Calling it 2e was marketing, not an indication of significant differences.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
3.0 and 3.5 used the same math, and the classes were more similar to each other than 5e classes are 1D&D seemingly. They were still treated differently.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
1E and 2E were different Editions of the same game, same as 3E and 3.5, but 3E was essentially a different game from AD&D, and 4E from either. So those Editions were not the same game, reelly.
3.5 was another Edition, but it was the same game so could nix freely with 3E: I know this because I learned D&D in a mixed 3E &3.5 environment where either and both went.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
So just like 5e and One D&D. Different edition, but same game?
mamba
Hero
but they are pretty compatible, just like 1e and 2e. People treating things differently is not always based on reason
mamba
Hero
Edition is meaningless when it is used mostly as a marketing term, as is done here, see 1e and 2e, 3e and 3.5. This time they try to not call it a new edition, last time they did, either way it is the same game it already was. I'd call it a revision, not an edition.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
In normal publishing terms, yes, different edition of the same game. But WotC poisoned the well on the term Edition so hard that they don't want to use it again, because they used it to mean "new game" rather than a rules revision of a unified game, as with the 7 Editions of Call of Cthulu.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Maybe so, but this still seems like a much bigger change than any of CoC's editions have from each other.
As I wrote "a close-enough" retro clone.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
But smaller than 3E to 3.5, which I always experienced freely intermixed.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
I'm not sure this is the point that should be made if trying to emphasize that Black Flag is objectively misleading as contrasted to WotC.
There are quite a lot of us that have serious objections to WotC claims about One D&D. Saying "One D&D is almost as 5e as our latest 5e books" may be objectively accurate, but their latest 5e books are conceptually to 5e as late 3e or 4e books were to their original core books. Things have changed and they are leaning into it.
Mike Mearls reflected on the changes from 3e to 4e, how that to the designers the changes seemed a logical and not radical development--because they were comparing late 3e to 4e. But, he said, they had discovered that for most players, an edition (whether 2e, or 3e, etc) is defined by its original core PHB. That's absolutely true for me. One D&D is not the same 5e game as in the 2014 core books, and is therefore not 5e to me. The changes to monster design, essential abandonment of the short rest, and revision via errata are the clearest embodiment of that.
Unlike 2e Players Options era, or late 3e evolutions (neither of which I really got into) they are not preserving the original PHB by keeping it in print it alongside some experimental new stuff. They are literally making it the only version of a PHB you can no longer purchase from them, because they have made substantial (and it seems like on-going) changes to the text in both the online version and new reprints. Let me modify that. You can't buy the original 4e either, because (I assume) the PDFs of the PHB, etc. they sell are the latest versions after massive revision by errata.
So yeah, I wasn't planning on derailing the thread, but if Kobold Press is being misleading, WotC is too. (As far as my own opinion goes, I don't think either of them are intentionally being misleading. I assume the current people in charge of One D&D design believe it's 5e just like the 4e designers believed it followed naturally from 3e).
EDIT: To put practical example to my statements, I love the Wild Beyond the Witchlight adventure, but I have to rewrite every NPC and new monster statblock to get the 5e experience I want, while I run Lost Mine of Phandelver straight out of the book.
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Bolares
Hero
My impression of this whole thing is that KP had a really strong reason to do black flag, and the community was really behind them. Then the reason evaporated with the creative commons move. Now they are trying to find a new narrative to keep people engaged.
I'm just sad that they are going for "You favourite game is going away!" instead off "we are trying to make a really good game and spiritual successor to 5e".
I'm just sad that they are going for "You favourite game is going away!" instead off "we are trying to make a really good game and spiritual successor to 5e".
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Then the FAQ needs new wording.Folks, I think this is just a case of misreading the FAQ.
1 - the current 5E Players Handbook, Monster Manual and DM's Guide will not continue to be in print once the new version, or edition, or whatever it is being called is released. The PDFs might remain available from WotC, or they may not.
2 - of course those 3 books will still be available in stores as long as their current stock remains, but they will be more and more difficult to buy over time, and eventually those hardcovers will be very tough to find
3 - Wizards seems to taking a more digital, subscription-based model. There is no indication that they will not still sell the books in physical format, but they are absolutely going more heavily with the digital, subscription-based model
The point of the FAQ is simply to say that the new Project Black Flag books will be produced in beautiful hard cover, as well as PDFs, and there will be no subscription-based model.
Messaging is a difficult game sometimes, but there is definitely no attempt to mislead in that FAQ, I promise
As written, it very much implies that if folks want to keep playing face to face, they’ll need something other than what wotc is putting out. It also implies that wotc won’t be putting out high quality physical books, which there is no evidence of.
Overall, it comes across as quite misleading.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
It all depends on how you look at it. To me, it really seems like WotC has decided to stop producing 5e, and no longer has any interest in the population it was created for. It's a little sad, to be honest, even though I have other options. I used to get legitimately excited when WotC announced another book, and even that pales in comparison to what their predecessor released.
Heck, I still hold a torch for Dragon Magazine!
Bolares
Hero
I very much disagree with this. The whole point of them stressing out that OD&D is not a new edition and is backwards compatible is because they are very much interested in keeping this massive consumer group.
I don't know how effective they are going to be in it, but they are absolutely interested.
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