D&D General Kobold Press Going Down a Dark Road

[Maxperson]

So 40+ then? So you're essentially doing a "stolen valour" when talking about being 35+, let alone 25+. I guess it's "technically correct, the best kind of correct" lol.

There's nothing "technical" or "stolen" about it. My entire premise is based on disposable income. That doesn't limit itself to 40+ no matter how badly you want to Red Herring it in that direction.

Also, you think people in their 20s are "making decent money", what planet are you living on? People in their 20s are relatively poorer than they have been for decades, due to the incredible issues with housing costs (both renting and buying), energy costs, and food costs - and even if we ignore the latter two as being more recent, people in their 20s now do not have the significant disposable income that people in their 20s had when you were in your 20s.

In the 25-29 range I see people making enough extra to start affording D&D books. Not all of them, but more than a few. Besides, if you are now arguing that you have to be 30+ to afford D&D books, you are making my point even stronger. So sure, let's remove 25-29 from those able to really afford to buy D&D books.

Hundred+ dollars per month - and that's actually about average for the US - last actual survey I saw (as opposed to guidance on what kids "should" get) said the average as $30/week - though I imagine that's probably quite unevenly split between high-income and low-income families.

As a parent and friend to many parents, kids don't get $30+ a week for allowance. At least not very many.

Suggestions that I see range from .50 to $2 per year of age, so a 16 year old would get $8-$32, with $32 per week being from families with quite a bit extra to spend. I also see from a NY times article that 80% of the 66% of parents that give an allowance, don't give an allowance. They have their kids work for the money by doing chores(5 hours a week on average, so paying kids about $6/hour), which isn't an allowance. So if we look at it, only 13.2% of kids actually get an allowance.

Regardless, even if we assume $30 a week as an income for a teenager, there are still books, games, movies, amusements parks, video games and more for them to spend money on in addition to D&D. $120 a month is piddly when it comes to disposable income. Me and my wife have thousands a month extra. When I say that between 1 and 5 Amazon packages arrive daily, that's not an exaggeration.

Kids don't generally pay for themselves at amusement parks (esp. as they can't even get to them by themselves until they can drive), and they don't buy a lot of board games (that's usually parents buying for them) so those are weird to include.

That may be how it's done in the UK, but here in California at least(and I see no reason to think it's different in other states), between Uber and parents who drop off and then pick up their kids, kids go alone to amusement parks starting at around 15 or 16. That's the same age as those who are earning the $30 a week to be able to spend it on a ticket and food after saving two months worth of what they earn.

And I don't really agree that "kids like to do lots of different things" any more than adults do. Some kids and some adults have really diverse interests, others don't. I think that's a non-point.

That's not what I see, either in the kids of my own and my friends, or in what kids were doing when I was a kid. We spent money on all kinds of things. And I haven't even included eating out or tech accessories for their phones and computers, etc.

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Because people in those age brackets tend to want different things out of D&D/WotC, not identical things, which is, I suspect, the whole reason we're even talking about targeting older gamers.

There is a great deal of overlap in what the different generations enjoy. People change, but not all that much. We're seeing the same basic stories in TV and Film being made now that were made 40 years ago and that were made 80 years ago. D&D changes around the edges, but remains the same basic game at heart.

 

[mamba]

We're far more than a "blip" on the radar. 26% of players are 35+ and we buy a hell of a lot more product with our disposable income than the myriad of college kids living on ramen.

where is that graphics from / how old is it?

The last I have is “Dungeons & Dragons is experiencing a major youth movement right now, with 40% of players being 25 years or younger. Earlier this month, Wizards of the Coast released several statistics about the Dungeons & Dragons playerbase, revealing that its core player group was much younger than expected. According to the demographics released by Wizards of the Coast to European retailers last week, 40% of players are 25 years or younger. By comparison, only 11% of players are 40 years or older.”

Not completely off, but skewing younger than your chart, which probably makes sense in a growing hobby

25% are 17- and they have pretty much no disposable income. It's their older parents who buy the bulk of their stuff.

sure, but it still is the stuff they want for the most part, so they are not ‘grognard buyers’

Another 18% are 18-24. An age group that tends to have little disposable income. That means that a full 43% have little money to buy books with.

nah, if you talk about buying a car I would be with you, but a bunch of books… they have the money for that

If they aren't aiming at that 57% that has the bulk of the spendable money, nearly half of which are 35+, then WotC is just plain stupid.

equating age with grognard again, I already said that I do not believe that people over 30 are all grognards, that works for 35 just as well

In addition I can argue that those 30 and up may have more income but also more expenses, with buying a house or starting a family, so they are strapped for money to spend on this, just like the 20-30 group.

I grant you that the age group is not a blip on the radar, but that is not the same as saying grognards are not.
I feel that if that age group were so grognard, the OSR would be bigger

 

[mamba]

Regardless, even if we assume $30 a week as an income for a teenager, there are still books, games, movies, amusements parks, video games and more for them to spend money on in addition to D&D. $120 a month is piddly when it comes to disposable income. Me and my wife have thousands a month extra.

with $30 a week you can easily buy all WotC D&D products in a year, you are basically done in mid February… your thousands a month do not get you more mileage

 

[Parmandur]

Looking into it, it seems that most teenagers happily shop at Amazon, and start working for money at 14 on average: on the young end of the target demographic for D&D. So, a new D&D book cost a teen in my city about two hours of work, and that's not much to ask for an afficiando. In my experience, older gamers seem to grumble more at the cost and do things like buy from a FLGS.

12-24 year Olds have been WotC intended target demographic for as long as they have owned D&D, and I seriously doubt they do that because 40+ year Olds actually buy more product.

 

[Bolares]

This discussion is so “funny” when I look at book prices here in Brazil. Nowadays a new hardcover is costing between 20-25% of the minimum wage. It’s pretty much a luxury hobby.

 

[Parmandur]

This discussion is so “funny” when I look at book prices here in Brazil. Nowadays a new hardcover is costing between 20-25% of the minimum wage. It’s pretty much a luxury hobby.

It absolutely is: unfortunate state of the world being what it is, Middle class teens flipping Burgers in Sunnyvale, California, have some serious luxury time and money compared to elsewhere.

 

[Maxperson]

where is that graphics from / how old is it?

The last I have is “Dungeons & Dragons is experiencing a major youth movement right now, with 40% of players being 25 years or younger. Earlier this month, Wizards of the Coast released several statistics about the Dungeons & Dragons playerbase, revealing that its core player group was much younger than expected. According to the demographics released by Wizards of the Coast to European retailers last week, 40% of players are 25 years or younger. By comparison, only 11% of players are 40 years or older.”

Um, that graphic showed 40% being 24 or younger. Numbers of the young don't equate to disposable income, which is where WotC's profits come from. It also showed 11% being 40 or older.

Not sure you looked that closely at the graphic I posted.

Sure, but it still is the stuff they want for the most part, so they are not ‘grognard buyers’

But they aren't really much of a buyer at all. The $120(and I'm taking the upper end of a teenagers disposable income) is being split between clothing, video games, movies, D&D, board games, tech devices, food out with friends, and more. $120 doesn't go very far these days.

nah, if you talk about buying a car I would be with you, but a bunch of books… they have the money for that

One movie with popcorn at a matinee is still around an entire week of their income. Clothing is going to be a few weeks all by itself.

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equating age with grognard again, I already said that I do not believe that people over 30 are all grognards, that works for 35 just as well

I don't really believe in grognard, which is why I made the young nard, medium nard and grog nard joke earlier. It's a fun term to throw around like when people joke at me by saying I should be out yelling "get off my lawn!", which I don't even have due to California droughts.

In addition I can argue that those 30 and up may have more income but also more expenses, with buying a house or starting a family, so they are strapped for money to spend on this, just like to 20-30 group.

This is absolutely true, which is why I said some, but more than just a few in the 25-29 range can do it. At 30+ you will generally have enough to spend on a D&D book or two a month if that's what you want to do. Even with expenses, they will have enough disposable income for that much. Especially since those expenses include a lot of luxuries like a bunch of streaming services, movies, etc.

I grant you that the age group is not a blip on the radar, but that is not the same as saying grognards are not.

Again, this is not really about grognards. They're going to stick with their pet editions regardless, so they aren't a part of the 5e demographics just released in any case.

The older(25+ or 30+ depending on when you view disposable income coming into play) players with the most income should be the target demographics. Then as younger folks become the older demographic, the game should shift to what they want.

 

[Parmandur]

Um, that graphic showed 40% being 24 or younger. Numbers of the young don't equate to disposable income, which is where WotC's profits come from. It also showed 11% being 40 or older.

Not sure you looked that closely at the graphic I posted.

But they aren't really much of a buyer at all. The $120(and I'm taking the upper end of a teenagers disposable income) is being split between clothing, video games, movies, D&D, board games, tech devices, food out with friends, and more. $120 doesn't go very far these days.

One movie with popcorn at a matinee is still around an entire week of their income. Clothing is going to be a few weeks all by itself.

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I don't really believe in grognard, which is why I made the young nard, medium nard and grog nard joke earlier. It's a fun term to throw around like when people joke at me by saying I should be out yelling "get off my lawn!", which I don't even have due to California droughts.

This is absolutely true, which is why I said some, but more than just a few in the 25-29 range can do it. At 30+ you will generally have enough to spend on a D&D book or two a month if that's what you want to do. Even with expenses, they will have enough disposable income for that much. Especially since those expenses include a lot of luxuries like a bunch of streaming services, movies, etc.

Again, this is not really about grognards. They're going to stick with their pet editions regardless, so they aren't a part of the 5e demographics just released in any case.

The older(25+ or 30+ depending on when you view disposable income coming into play) players with the most income should be the target demographics. Then as younger folks become the older demographic, the game should shift to what they want.

If you get people playing for 20+ years, then you pretty much have them. WotC aims at the younger demographic because that's historically where thebsales drive is (same as literally every other game company that I'm aware if, this is jot udiosyncratic), but anyone thst Cadre who still plays in their 30's is bought in.

 

[nevin]

I think the Pathfinder of OneD&D is just gonna be 5E itself, with people using the SRD to put stuff on DriveThruRPG & elsewhere.

Which tbh I think was one of the main reasons WotC wanted to kill the 5E SRD. OneD&D's biggest competition is going to be 5E - and thanks to OGL-gate, people who just want to keep playing 5E will be robustly supported in terms of 3rd party adventures and supplements.

I think what Hasbro hasn't figured out yet is that every new popular version sucks in a significant group of players that will never leave that version. 1e, 2e, 3rd e , and now 5e will each have more players than almost any competitor except possibly pathfinder. Though this is counting all the OSR stuff as 1st ed.

 

[Parmandur]

I think what Hasbro hasn't figured out yet is that every new popular version sucks in a significant group of players that will never leave that version. 1e, 2e, 3rd e , and now 5e will each have more players than almost any competitor except possibly pathfinder. Though this is counting all the OSR stuff as 1st ed.

I mean, I think they have figured that out, hence the prime directive in the design for the new revision being backwards compatibility.