KotS Total-Party-Kill!!

[david_annable]

So I ran my second session of KotS last night. Having dealt with the first two Kobold ambush encounters, the PCs had decided to raid the Kobold lair.

Now I haven't exactly read every single person's account of KotS, but I know I haven't read any reports of a total-party-kill. We had one last night.

Irontooth, the goblin commander of the Kobold lair, was simply too much for the characters to handle after having waded through 20 minions, and a bunch of non-minion foes.

So I started thinking about how differently I DM 4th edition vs other RPGs and specifically 3rd edition DnD. I realized that by having read many of the preview material, I have been given the strong impression that a lot of effort has gone into providing a consistent game experience through balance. As such, without really thinking too much about it, I just sort of went to town on my players. I followed the "Tactics" section of each encounter as closely as I could and attempted to make "smart" decisions from the perspective of the monsters (almost all Kobolds so far), keeping in mind what I thought they'd do and how they'd think based on what was written in the module.

By the time the last PC dropped, Irontooth wasn't even bloodied (I think he had 71 hit points left), and there was a single dragonshiled still standing by his side (who, I believe, was 1 or 2 hits away from dropping).

So, I guess my question is: has anyone else noticed a difference in how they run 4E? Are you more brutal or more forgiving with your players than before? Do you find that you, as the DM, are using tactics in ways that you might not have before because you want to take advantage of your monster's powers? And how are your players responding to that? Players: do you think the game is more challenging?

And finally, has anyone else had their entire party die while playing KotS?

 

[smathis]

So, I guess my question is: has anyone else noticed a difference in how they run 4E? Are you more brutal or more forgiving with your players than before? Do you find that you, as the DM, are using tactics in ways that you might not have before because you want to take advantage of your monster's powers? And how are your players responding to that? Players: do you think the game is more challenging?

And finally, has anyone else had their entire party die while playing KotS?

1. Yup, I run 4e very differently than 3e.

2. I'd say more brutal. Because the PCs are more buff, I feel less of a need to coddle them. I throw what I have at them, eyeball it for balance and go with it.

3. Yes, I use tactics a lot more and that has everything to do with the new monster stat blocks and the tactics guidelines.

4. I don't know. I've just run test combats and demo sessions at this point. Some players are more positive about it than others.

5. As a player, I find 4e more engaging. I wouldn't say more challenging. There's more riding on how I use my abilities in a given situation than on whether or not a housecat scores a crit.

6. In a test run, I had a TPK in the second encounter. The Kobolds had gotten surprise and just had the better position. The PCs were the Warlord, the Paladin, the Ranger and the Warlock, IIRC. The Kobolds ate them alive. This test run led me to believe that the encounter might need to be scaled down for 1st level PCs but I was wrong. In the demo game, the PCs mopped the floor with the scaled down second encounter. This is how I discovered that tactics, position and teamwork count in 4e probably more than any other edition. A good group that works together and has a little luck on their side can take on some pretty nasty opponents. A bickering group that doesn't? Well, they'll wind up doing lots of chargen.

 

[Dayspire]

Same thing happened with my group - TPK on the Irontooth encounter. I had five players (Wizard, Fighter, Rogue, Warlock, Cleric). They took down Irontooth, but finally went down. Enemies remaining - 1 dragonshield, 1 skirmisher, and 1 wyrmpriest.

Personally, I've never had more fun as a DM - nor have I ever felt like i had such amazing power over the combat, tactically speaking. There were times in 3.5 where the PC's walked over difficult encounters, and I *knew* it was because of my poor tactics. I feel that will not be a problem with 4E.

 

[Nifft]

We played the Irontooth encounter last night and almost died. The Rogue and the Cleric were still up when Irontooth fell, then the Wyrmpriest took down the Cleric, and the Rogue and Wyrmpriest played tag for a few rounds while the rest of us started rolling death saves. Ugh. It SUCKS to not be able to stabilize! Maybe we're missing a rule somewhere. :\

Anyway, the Rogue got the Cleric back up with a DC 10 Heal check (to trigger the Cleric's second wind, since the Cleric hadn't used it yet), and the Cleric saved the rest of us.

The other three of us had each failed two death saves (and succeeded at at least three each) before being stabilized.

We're now camped in the cave.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Family]

Stuff

Good times! I love a good nail biter.

 

[NMcCoy]

We (a party of the Paladin, Warlord, Wizard, Rogue (me), and an NPC Cleric (also handled by me)) came very very close to a TPK in the Irontooth encounter, only surviving because the DM pulled his punches at the end so that the Wyrmpriest fled when he was one of the last two enemies alive. The wizard and I (at 13 and 8 HP, respectively) managed to finish off the last guy with ranged attacks, but all our healers were down, nobody had any second winds or healing powers left, and the Paladin would have died at negative half were it not for an AC bonus we initially forgot to include.

 

[DimitriX]

My group got killed on the second encounter, Kobold Ambush. This encounter wasn't full of minions which die with one hit. This had 3 dragonshields and a wyrmpriest. I think what really hurt them was that they were still thinking in 3e terms. The kobolds were able to outmaneuver the party and only character used her daily power even when it was obvious that the encounter was going badly for the party. The wyrmpriest also wasn't attacked much (still not sure why they ignored him) and was able to use the acid orb against the paladin (it attacks Ref, which was one of his lowest defenses).

To their credit, they were trying to run with the warlord rather than the cleric. Also, I think it really hurts not having the full rules. I can already tell that there are other options that they could have used but weren't in the quick start rules. Looking back, I kind of wish we had decided to just start this adventure when the core books came out and done it right from the start.

 

[TerraDave]

Even with a quick glance at the mod (its been a busy week) that enounter stuck out.

I had the feeling it was there to give you a huge battle, and a bunch of XPs, so the pcs get to level 2.

Of course, they do have to survive.

 

[Nifft]

Good times! I love a good nail biter.

I disliked it. Irontooth was simply unfair. There's no way he presented an appropriate challenge to 1st level PCs.

We did this one right after the "second ambush", and we had the good fortune (or good planning) to have saved three gluepots and one stinkpot, which our Rogue used to keep Irontooth away from us while we sniped him to death.

We must have had good tactics, because the "second ambush" didn't even bloody one of us. We took them down without using any daily powers, too -- which is fortunate, since we used EVERY daily power in the Irontooth fight, and still almost bought the farm.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

I had the feeling it was there to give you a huge battle, and a bunch of XPs, so the pcs get to level 2.

Our group somehow didn't get enough XP to level.

, -- N