D&D 5E Kung Fu Panda: How do wildshape and monk class abilities interact?

You should reread the chapter title which happens to appear above the Multiclassing rules... "CHAPTER 6: CUSTOMIZATION OPTIONS"
RAW, Strictly, Multiclassing isn't allowed unless the DM allows it. RAW, Strictly, feats aren't allowed, unless the DM allows it.

That chapter starts on PHB 163, and ¶2 states: "This chapter defines two optional sets of rules for customizing your character: multiclassing and feats." It also says: "Your DM decides whether these options are available in a campaign."

Strict RAW, feats and multiclassing are DM controlled options.

Ah. Well I had/have not yet read the MC rules...since i had no intention of using them and sticking to "how I do."

But sweet! Thanks!

Nice to know I'm justified in what I was doing anyway (saying "no" to the proposed combinations) within the RAW...for those that care about that kinda thing.
 

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I would definitely let apes make an unarmed monk attack as a bonus action. It would be 1d4+Str or Dex. I prolly would let bears do it too, call it a head butt or elbow blow. A monk trained beast would figure out some way to leverage his training in his new form. Besides, a bonus action attack for small damage is not OP.
 

Assuming you are using the Black Bear stat block as the stock for a kung fu panda, your AC would be the better of these two options:

· Use the black bear’s normal AC, or
· Recalculate your unarmored defense AC using the black bear’s Dex and your Wisdom.

Wild Shape gives you the form’s stat block, but allows you to keep your Int, Wis and Cha scores, so unarmored defense is recalculated. Does natural armor figure into unarmored defense? By RAW, no. The rules explicitly say 10 + Dex mod + Wis mod.
I would do this, but I disagree with evilives about the unarmed attack.

I feel like the monk class feature adds the option to make a martial-arts attack; it doesn't replace existing options. As a human monk, you still have the option to make a 1-damage attack with your balled-up fist, but you usually choose not to.

Likewise, if you're a bear, you can use your mighty bear claws, but if you are a monk-bear, you can also choose to skip the claws and make an unarmed monk attack, and you can do so as a Flurry of Blows.
 
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Honestly, I came here for the same reason that brought here the OP and I find your ideas (or opinions one could say) a bit odd. let me elaborate:

an unarmed attack is a melee attack portrayed without a weapon, or a "tool" you might say. If you force yourself to consider a bear's claws the "tool" the bear uses with his paw to actually do the deed, i don't see why a monk bear couldn't use his massive arms to swipe at an enemy as well as using his paws to claw at it. The damage could still be represented by the monk's d4 unarmed die+str+proficiency, but denying it at all makes me think of a short sightedness rather than trying to keep things "untainted" :v
by the way, you "force" yourself because you cannot actually consider natural weapons as "tools of the trade", since they're the natural extension of the paw/arm/limb/whatever, thus one could allow the use of claws as unarmed strikes alike a monk who uses brass knuckles to add magic damage to his fists... but this is way debatable, to say the least. :)

the point of this charade is: moon druids get behind martial artists, from both damage and survivability perspective from 5th level on.
Perhaps it's just me but i've noticed that barbarians and warriors are better at it. Warriors dish a lot of damage and as battle masters are very controlling of the field; barbarians are excellent damage dealers overall and take a lot of punishment as bear totemic fighters... then there is the moon druid, who can shapeshift, soak damage and overall stand their ground just fine up to 5th level, then she get behind. Perhaps they will cover some of the gap at 10th level with the elemental form, but i'm quite confident that martial classes are getting goodies too.

So, what a DM could gain by denying a little of creativity?
Depth? ok i can agree on this one if your campaign deserves a more "serious" attitude, like in epic campaigns or sagas, but otherwise why would you?
Immersion? a bear monk is *that* distracting? ok perhaps if all the other team mates are more "strict", yes: i could agree it gets distracting, otherwise why wouldn't you?
and why wouldn't you allow a bear monk while you would allow a barbarian bear? because the second one makes way more sense than a monk bear? couldn't agree more! still both combos share the same ruleset, so why would you allow one and deny the other? doesn't seem fair imho :)
 
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Immersion? a bear monk is *that* distracting? ok perhaps if all the other team mates are more "strict", yes: i could agree it gets distracting, otherwise why wouldn't you?
and why wouldn't you allow a bear monk while you would allow a barbarian bear? because the second one makes way more sense than a monk bear? couldn't agree more! still both combos share the same ruleset, so why would you allow one and deny the other? doesn't seem fair imho :)

There are basically three approaches to this question.

The first is gamist which phrases the question as "Is this balanced, or will it disrupt my game?" The correct answer involves math, which I am not going to do. However since the Barbarian and Monk Unarmoured Defense features are nearly identical there is no reason to prefer one over the other, neither or both should be allowed.

The second approach is simulationist and phrases the question as "Does this make sense within my world?" My answer there would be that a barbarians abilities are mystical (linked to the spirt which is unchanged by the shape shift) or anger based, and animals can get angry. So barbarian/druid passes the sniff test. Although for a totem barbarian it would be perfectly fair to my mind to rule that the abilities only function if you are shifted into the totems form. So no bear totem abilities while shaped as a dire wombat. A monks abilities are largely physical, and based on years of training. Shifting to an entirely new form with different balance, strengths and joints will completely negate all of that muscle memory, so to my mind the monk/druid cannot employ martial arts in a novel form. Which is not to say I would not allow a Monk/Druid to spend years developing an animal form based martial art. Indeed you could found an order on the principles of animal style (no really) kung fu. But unless you put in the effort, or talk me into introducing such an order into my world, it's not happening.

The third approach is narrative and asks "Is this a story I want to tell in my world?" Obviously each GM will rule differently, but this also depends heavily on the extent to which tone has been set and world building has been completed.

These approaches are not exclusive, btw. For example I would say that SteelDragons reply was a mix of the second and third approaches, as I read it.
 


There are basically three approaches to this question.

The first is gamist which phrases the question as "Is this balanced, or will it disrupt my game?" The correct answer involves math, which I am not going to do.

Let's agree to disagree, I'm going to elaborate below.

However since the Barbarian and Monk Unarmoured Defense features are nearly identical there is no reason to prefer one over the other, neither or both should be allowed.

why shouldn't you allow them, then? natural armor implies thickness of your skin, not some kind of apparel you don.
For instance the bear has 10 AC (as anybody) and 1 natural armor. There is nothing you could ever consider as armor, so why would you? and above all else, why would you deny a class feature which implies you gain a benefit from something you could have gained through training as well as through magical/mystic ways?
"game balance" is not a viable answer, because you can cast a spell, you can don a barding, you can acquire magic items. So there are several ways to gain the same benefit, so why would you deny one? what are the reasons? apart from specific DM ruling which imho should be well explained to your gamers very much alike whatever resons they should provide to you for having a barbarian moon druid. it's only fair that if the gamers' reason must make sense and be well intertwined with your settings, your ruling should match the same criteria too!
What i'm trying to say is that you shouldn't choke the fantasy of your player. If they think something is cool and they would love to do that, why shouldn't you allow it? "because i don't like it" it's not a legit answer nor a very fair one, one may add :)

The second approach is simulationist and phrases the question as "Does this make sense within my world?" My answer there would be that a barbarians abilities are mystical (linked to the spirt which is unchanged by the shape shift) or anger based, and animals can get angry. So barbarian/druid passes the sniff test. Although for a totem barbarian it would be perfectly fair to my mind to rule that the abilities only function if you are shifted into the totems form. So no bear totem abilities while shaped as a dire wombat. A monks abilities are largely physical, and based on years of training.

This whole resonment implies that you are overruling the customization options for your own personal motivations, not from a mechanics nor settings perspective.
I can respect that you restrict the rage and bear totem to bear shapes, but this is something that should come from the player, not an imposition from the master.


Shifting to an entirely new form with different balance, strengths and joints will completely negate all of that muscle memory, so to my mind the monk/druid cannot employ martial arts in a novel form. Which is not to say I would not allow a Monk/Druid to spend years developing an animal form based martial art. Indeed you could found an order on the principles of animal style (no really) kung fu. But unless you put in the effort, or talk me into introducing such an order into my world, it's not happening.

Another role playing ruling, not mechanics'. This is mostly up to the gamers too.

From a mechanics perspective, the martial arts are meant to be a way to dish extra damage with parts of your body that normally couldn't. this has little to do with your physiognomy "per say", because any martial artist can spend his downtime training at being better in a different shape, or with a different style. When a martial artist changes his style he just changes a mean to land hits, it's not like he's going back to his dojo to relearn how to stand on his feet like a rookie does. the same could be applied to a monk who turns druid (and vice versa of course): he changes his physique and trains at being effective. As a bear you will not certainly roundhouse kick stuff - at least not as an entry level monk :p - but you will be surely able to swipe your arms, grab and squeeze, and whatever could come up in the mind of the gamers. This is fairly represented by a d4+str+proficiency for an entry level monk. Then as soon as she gets better, this die can, and will, improve, as it does normally. I fail to see the flaw here, i'm sorry.


The third approach is narrative and asks "Is this a story I want to tell in my world?" Obviously each GM will rule differently, but this also depends heavily on the extent to which tone has been set and world building has been completed.

These approaches are not exclusive, btw. For example I would say that SteelDragons reply was a mix of the second and third approaches, as I read it.

This is something you debate with your DM and strictly regards the role playing aspect of the game. It has little to do with mechanics.

The OP asked a set of questions regarding the mechanics, not the implications of such an initiative in his world.

OK, this is probably a RAW, RAI, "how would you rule it" set of questions. But...

  1. How does a monk's unarmed defense work with wildshape? For that matter a barbarian's unarmed defense?
  2. How would martial arts--in particular the bonus attack--work in wildshape?

Imho unarmed defence works just fine if your shape doesn't get any AC from wearing armor (which as an animal can only be achieved by wearing a barding or a magical suit of armor). Let me elaborate.

This is hard to show by looking at animals only, so if you kindly open your monster manual and go to the "Ogre" (p.237 MM) you will see that his armor classe is stated as Hide armor, then go to the "Oni" (p. 239 MM) and you will see Chain mail, last go to the Gibbering Mouther (p.157 MM) and you will see there is nothing stated after the nine. This means that this creature isn't wearing any armor nor has natural armor itself: its defenses are just the -1 Dex!

What does this mean? it means that in the recap (because it is a recap of the monster's stats) it shows you that it has a given AC value and from where it comes from by stating it between parses.

This implies that when you see natural armor stated as the soruce, there is a thick layer of skin/fur/scales, involved, not an apparel.
By this reasonment, your naturally armored animal is not wearing any armor, thus Unarmored Defense states: "While you are not w earing any armor, your Armor Class equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Constitution (or Wisdom) modifier. You can use a shield and still gain this benefit (not the monks)"
Thus it should be working just fine.

THEN if your DM overrules this, it's something that has nothing to do with mechanics and that's it. Imho it's not fair and you should pretend an extended explaination for this... just don't do it in the midst of the gaming session, it's douchy as hell!

For the first I'm leaning toward saying AC=animal AC or 10+DEX+WIS+SIZE mod, whichever is better.
For the second I'm unsure. I think RAW it doesn't work and it would probably be OP to let it work. But it's cool.

It's not a size mod, it's a Natural Armor mod as stated between the parses. Natural armor comes from different soruces: it could be fur, it could be thickness, it could be the material (e.g. golems) or a particular condition (e.g. undeads).
It's not OP neither, because you could gain the same benefit by other means (e.g. barkskin, magic armor, bracers of defense*, etc). So unless you consider OP having something you are expected to have, there is no other reason for you to consider it as that.

*Bracers of defense provide you +2 bonus AC from an unspecified source (p. 155 DMG) and since the description of magic item categories (p.139 DMG) states that you may choose the type or determine it randomly, you could choose "dodge" bonus or "luck" or whatever "non suit of armor related" and stack it with unarmored defense and everything else!
If you look at the animated shield, you will notice that it states "armor (shield)" in the very first line of its description: this means it provides a "shield" type of AC bonus, which will deny your monk her Unarmored Defense but not the barbarian's (and as a magical item, it will work while shaped, providing your bear a stylish shield floating around it! :D )
 
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I'm still interested in the AC equation for wild shaped characters. I mean how would the AC occur with:

1) Monk's unarmed defense?
2) Barbarian's unarmed defense?
3) Mage Armor, which sets your AC to a specific level?

If I had to guess...

1) The AC would be either the beast's AC OR (10+the beast's Dex+the character's Wis).
2) The AC would be either the beast's AC OR (10+the beast's Dex+the beast's Con).
3) The AC would be either the beast's AC OR (13+the beast's Dex).

...picking whichever was higher in both cases. The last case is applicable even in campaigns where the GM doesn't allow for multi-classing as both Sorcerers and Wizards are capable of both effects on their own through Mage Armor and Polymorph; Warlocks are capable using the Eldritch Invocations of Armor of Shadows and Sculptor of Flesh; and Druids similarly using Wild Shape or Polymorph and Barkskin.

Opinions? Anyone know what the official word is?
 


I'm unable to point to the source of this ruling, but as I understand it you cannot have two equations for your AC, so there would be none of this combination natural armor and unarmored defense stuff from recent posts. Makes enough sense from a gamist perspective, but if you prefer flavor I'd be iffy about combining the effects anyway- with the monk at least I see the unarmored situation as being a matter of thick enough skin and muscle preparation, so that's verging on incompatible with having a layer of scales that softens a blow already.

For other Tai Chi Tiger antics I'd speculate that an unarmed humanoid attacks that martial artists make are like a small mace with the finesse property- lots of wriggle room for maneuvering the impact right into a soft spot. With that kind of thinking you'd have to judge the natural weapons of beasts on a case by case basis, with a majority of the attacks being clubs or claws. Something like a snake has almost all of the right properties except that they're making a bite attack or constricting around the target. Your various deer shaped beasts have something like the right thing going on when they duel each other with those horns, but using your neck like that might be so different that I don't know if I'd let martial arts knowledge apply to it. Overall there's not anything in the beasts lists (with an admittedly cursory scan over it,) that I think quite maps to the art of really utilizing a fist. This is fine for some of the features as these things often reasonably map to simple melee weapons.

Because the unarmed strike makes no mention of needing a free hand to use it (sure it competes with the bonus action, but it's not a strict requirement,) I'm assuming this includes smacking your opponent with the back of your hand, elbow, or maybe getting a foot involved.
As the class feature already has a defined damage equation for that this is all smooth enough for the table, unless you rule that something like a bear's arm counts as a two handed club- there's clearly only the one hand there, but allowing that attack with a dex modifier seems questionable.
 

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