L&L 3/05 - Save or Die!

[scott2978]

I personally like having SoD effects in my campaigns. I also agree with those who say that having a PC die is not a great idea. So, I usually just make sure the PC's have a "way out" of death if it does occur. Either they have the gold and a friendly Cleric who can resurrect them (True Res is the only way to go though as losing a level is often even worse than death and can unbalance the group to boot) or a magic item that can bring them back, or a house rule mechanic like a Fate Point that a PC can spend to "avoid death" and instead just be unconscious at -9 hit points. I also let PC's spend their Fate Points on other PCs and not just themself. This has the effect of keeping the suspence of defeat without having the pains of actual death. Of course, if there are no more Fate Points left in the group someone could still die. I always had the PC reset back to 1 Fate Point at each new level. I had also considered some mechanic that gave them bonus xp if no Fate Point had been spent on them during their previous level, but never got around to implementing it.

 

[scott2978]

--Oops, mis-post--

 

[Mercule]

I skipped most of the preceding pages, so this may have been said. I like the basic idea. It reinforces the idea that hit points aren't just toughness. They include luck, skills, and combat sense.

To go with that idea, I'd still like to see save-or-die effects deal damage, because avoiding Medusa's gaze while trying to fight her is a very high-stakes crap shoot. Maybe have the save-or-die attacks turned into ultra-damaging attacks that have a special effect if they drop the target to 0 hp (or some other arbitrary threshold, as Mike described).

 

[pemerton]

That's what I had in mind when I suggested the "Heroic Avoidance" option earlier. I must not have been clear the way I wrote it up.

Another possibility is that I didn't read all of the thread before posting . . . but who can tell?

Anyway, great minds and all that.

 

[RHGreen]

Right so a Save Or Die is basically a finishing move in the Mearls mechanic.

Save Or Dies are 'all or nothing.' A Medusa either gazes or not.

If you just make them so they cause really high damage, but that damage(die) is only applied if it takes the PC to 0HP.

It is a similar mechanic to Mearls, but has a random damage effect.

Character can have extra defence against certain attacks.

Elves get Defence+5 versus Ghoul Paralysis and Charm.


When you pull one off a loud voicee bellows 'Fatality'

 

[BryonD]

Yep, and it's not like it's difficult to throw a save, or an extra save or two in front of a spell that would normally be "you die" when I'm at the table.

Well, I was referencing the general idea of clues and the like.

But I can absolutely see how you could keep SoD and then just justify saves to avoid the save. In effect you have SoSoD rather than SSoD. And from a mechanics point of view, there is no difference. You can always tack more "So"s on front of a SoD. It is just when SSSoD starts giving you "wrong" things like being slowed by Medusa that I start looking for better games.

So yes I agree.
But at the same time I'm personally going to be a bit stingy with those extras saves at my table. To me those become things where, most of the time, the player is responsible for getting their character into (or keeping them out of) the need for saves.

But every situation is unique and every group will have its own read on how best to manage each situation.

And in the end that comes down to a case for "leave save or die in, as is, and give groups the tools to mitigate to their own taste"

 

[nightwalker450]

PC creation doesn't take 10 minutes in any game, except for the very first session.

Usually you are loosing MONTHS or YEARS of character development when your character dies. And if resurrection is your answer, than why do you need SoD? SoD is not at all scary, if it involves restoring to your last save point.

Death should be meaningful, and not random.

 

[BryonD]

It's not like it's difficult to add a sidebar to the medusa entry that states: "to achieve the 'classic' medusa result, just skip stages one and two so that a successful attack by the medusa results directly in turning the character to stone."

It is more difficult to design stages one and two that are flavorful and balanced. Not impossible by any means, but not usable out of the box like the medusa I propose with SSSoD as the default and a SoD sidebar.

You may very well be right.

But in the end I think that is where WotC's back is against the wall.

I've got an awesome game right now. I'm sticking with it unless they come up with a more awesome game. Coming up with a new game that works adequately won't be anywhere near good enough.
I've got zero brand loyalty and zero interest in "new shiny". I want what the best option.

If the game is founded on ideas like "here is how to protect characters with a stack of extra saves but if you want to fix the narrative there is a sidebar over there", then they won't come close.

There is no need to 5E to appeal to me any more than there was for 4E. And the 4E crowd is the bird in the hand. But if they want to increase their fan base, they need to make some real changes.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

But in the end I think that is where WotC's back is against the wall.

I've got an awesome game right now. I'm sticking with it unless they come up with a more awesome game. Coming up with a new game that works adequately won't be anywhere near good enough.
I've got zero brand loyalty and zero interest in "new shiny". I want what the best option.

If the game is founded on ideas like "here is how to protect characters with a stack of extra saves but if you want to fix the narrative there is a sidebar over there", then they won't come close.

An unflavorful sidebar probably wouldn't be the best approach. I could see how one could view it as an after-thought.

What if the narrative for the medusa entry spoke towards the bloodline of D&D medusae to the progenitor of their bloodline? "Medusa-kin" narrative explains that their power takes more time to fully turn someone to stone and expresses this in SSSoD mechanics. "Lesser Medusa" are more powerful and are expressed in SSoD mechanics. While "Greater Medusa" have direct links to the originator of their species and have a SoD mechanic.

If not that, then how would you suggest WotC could be inclusive and provide the 'best option?'

 

[DEFCON 1]

What if the narrative for the medusa entry spoke towards the bloodline of D&D medusae to the progenitor of their bloodline? "Medusa-kin" narrative explains that their power takes more time to fully turn someone to stone and expresses this in SSSoD mechanics. "Lesser Medusa" are more powerful and are expressed in SSoD mechanics. While "Greater Medusa" have direct links to the originator of their species and have a SoD mechanic.'

If the MM ends up having several variations of each monster like the 4E MMs did... then there's no reason *not* to do something like this. Heck, I'd go even further with what you have here by not only making three medusa versions of SSSoD, SSoD, & SoD... but also make them Standard, Elite, and Solo. That way the DM reading the book really knows what they are getting into. You can throw several Standard "medusa-kin" at a party and be fairly confident in the party's work to counter the effects as they occur... or you go for broke by putting them up against a single Solo "Greater Medusa" that has the true SoD mechanic.

The biggest thing though is that I think any monsters with true SoD need to be Solos. The mechanic is too important/cool/deadly/story-driven to have it be on monsters that are meant to be found as a pack encounter for the party. That just takes the 'oomph' out of them.