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L&L 3/05 - Save or Die!

Harlekin

First Post
But, again, the bottom line is forget the false standard of "realism" and focus on getting the things to work in the game the same as they do in great stories. Make that change and your complaint here goes away.

It is easy to think of many scenarios where it is a huge problem for the story that an unarmed, unarmored fighter does not feel overly threatened by several armed opponents.

Try to threaten your 3rd to 5th level PCs with 10-20 club- and knife armed beggars or 2-6 city guards with crossbows, and they will be amused, even if their gear and their spells are locked away. In a story, those PCs would beat feet. In D&D, the PCs will take out the opposition without serious injury and then take their stuff.
 

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BryonD

Hero
There is no precedent for looking at a Medusa. These is a single story about a guy fighting decked out in magic items fighting a Medusa in a very one-sided combat. So all you have is anecdotal evidence here.
"Anecdotal"? Really?

That "one story" also happens to the THE STANDARD.

In a story, those PCs would beat feet. In D&D, the PCs will take out the opposition without serious injury and then take their stuff.
This from the guy who just called the Perseus myth an anecdote???

There are plenty of examples in which this simply isn't remotely true. (Clash of Titans happens to feature both 1-look = stone Medusa and also *bring on the lot of ya* fighting, but that is just an anecdote)

There are gritty game systems out there for gritty games. Do you want to talk about those in the new edition of D&D forum? And if so, why?
 



BryonD

Hero
No I don't. That's why I think SoD doesn't belong in D&D.
I don't think many people would call 1E "gritty" in the context we were just discussing (one thrust knife kills) and yet SoD has a long tradition in D&D.

There is a significant distinction between "gritty" and "high potential for character death."
 

Harlekin

First Post
I don't think many people would call 1E "gritty" in the context we were just discussing (one thrust knife kills) and yet SoD has a long tradition in D&D.

There is a significant distinction between "gritty" and "high potential for character death."

I'm not sure I see that distinction. Why would you even want a game with high probability of character death that is not gritty?

Also I think "We always used to do it like this" is not the best argument for anything, especially as the last edition of the game works just fine without it.
 
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Kingreaper

Adventurer
I'm not sure I see that distinction. Why would you even want a game with high probability of character death that is not gritty?

Lots of reasons.
The most obvious is if you're going for Gaming, without much roleplay. It's not gritty, because that's about the roleplay, it's just deadly, because that makes the game more fun.

But there are other reasons too.
 

GM Dave

First Post
What I find interesting is this discussion is currently all swirling around the proper representation of Medusa in DnD.

The history of Medusa and monsters in DnD has historically been quite varied.

There have been the Great Monster Medusa of say Birthright or Ravenloft and then there have been the lesser Medusa that seem to have colonies of the critters.

There have even been male Medusa in DnD.

Some of the Medusa are bi-pedal walkers and some have serpent bodies. I've even seen a few that looked like a pile of snakes traveling in a serpent ball with a human head.

There have been dozens of versions created for different settings, for different Dragon and Dungeon magazines.

One of the strengths of DnD is the ability of the DM to express their creativity in the monsters.

This is why traditionally the Monster Manuel has been the last book to buy and the last book that I bother to look at for ideas.

90% the Pegs provided don't fit my want, need, or story focus. I might borrow a rule or idea here or there from this monster or that but after that I'll create as I like.

Some days I'll want my players feeling their lives can be snuffed out at a whim of a candle and some times I'll want them to have a real slog. I even modify monsters on the fly after assessing what players have arrived for the night and what kind of moods they are in.

If they want to pound stuff then I'll give them stuff to pound and if they want to negotiate then I'll give them stuff to negotiate.

If the company wants to give me something useful in a MM entry then give me some options, a framework to hang the options on, a few story seeds, and some details on which I can fit the creature into overall game framework (curse you Flail Snail and Flumph, where the heck do I put you?)
 

howandwhy99

Adventurer
I must say i am rather amused how concerned people are about simulating the gaze of a Medusa realistically in a game where any fighter can ignore being threatened with a Knife and no trained warrior will ever die from falling of a horse.

D&D always made huge concession to fun ignoring realism in areas where our real life experience actually tells us what should happen.

But apparently making those concessions to the "realism" of a Medusa is a problem even though there is no real Medusa.

You have some insightful posts, so I thought I'd respond to one. Simulation is a concern for some players, but it isn't the be and and end all either. In the past the game did clip off extraordinarily rare odds in its rolls. When games tried to put them back in, like with exploding damage rolls (cumulative max results keep rolling), they invariably limited how long PCs could adventure before the odds caught up to them too, not just dealing it out to the enemy. It would be unheard of for anyone to live to old age from peasant living alone, much less the dangerous business of adventuring (though maybe some prefer that in their games, I don't).

However, while I do think the game makes concessions in some places to enable simplicity behind the screen, it can do a fair job of simulating stuff like combat too. A single knife can kill pretty much any creature when not actively defended against. A fall from a horse is 1d6 and a few poor HP rolls early on even for a Fighter means a 10' fall can still drop someone below zero. -10 (a glaring PC-only rule) obviously keeps PCs alive when they would more commonly die due to injury. Will HPs be dropped? Maybe we'll get multiple options with the benefits and drawbacks of each, who knows? But some level of abstraction will live on.

My main point is, interesting character challenges should lead to interesting player strategies. Medusa Save or Turn to Stone is pretty classic. It involves shared eye contact, so both creatures must be able to see and have direct line of sight on the other, no cover, no blindfolds, nada. It means arc of vision is accounted for, for humanoids normally 180°, and facing by creatures pointed at each other in that arc. That stuff isn't in the game anymore. They may have never been in many people's games, but bizarre outcomes due to the rules arise like hydra heads needing to be cut off (yeah I went there) when the rules can't account for corner cases.

I'd prefer to see players think up ideas like "we're better off negotiating here; what do we have to offer?" or "maybe we could send the monk in blindfolded? Let's test that out first like this..." Hack & Slash play really was about charging in and smacking stuff with one's sword until everything fell. It used to be the odds were on average 50% to do that (so in no one's favor). Changing the odds by thinking outside the box was how we changed that. And IMO creative thinking is really what these glass cannons promote. They're not about ruining the players fun or exiling them from the game table randomly. And I'd rather not see made popular the opinion that 'anything not solely designed for attrition-based play is the problem.' I say we need more diversity of rules, not less. These are the times when the rules need to step in and promote more interesting game play, not less.

I'm not Simulation or Nothing. What I see is a design challenge that can be overcome creatively and, if done well, could really amaze people. Rather than bemoaning these difficulties and avoiding them by changing the fiction, why don't we think of means that highlight their uniqueness and really push the players to get creative too?
 

keterys

First Post
Just assume the Medusa for some reason has a special tag, and move discussions to anything other than the Medusa, and you're better off.
 

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