L&L 3/05 - Save or Die!

[Dausuul]

Your point about lower-level replacements voiding the adventure speaks to an issue I have with 3e/4e - the math is too fine-tuned. In 1e/2e you could chuck a 3rd-level character in with a party of 6ths and it'd have a chance of surviving long enough to catch up a bit. Not so much these days...

Really? I shouldn't think this would pose much of a problem in 4E. A third-level character would be at a definite disadvantage in a sixth-level party, but it's hardly suicidal.

 

[howandwhy99]

For OD&D (can't recall AD&D specifically) we have basically 4 levels of defense.
1st is active which includes any DEX adjustment, armor class, etc.
2nd is fatigued, but still defending. This is a -1 cumulative penalty per round after 3-5 rounds of various strenuous activities. Other adjustments still apply.
3rd is resting and defenseless. Fail a fatigue check and all one can do for the round is rest and defend vital areas. DEX drops to a penalty.
4th is helpless including sleep (unconscious), held, bound, etc. Some attacks may be automatic and Coup de Grace (assassination attacks) can be rolled.

Just because a Save is made doesn't mean a character should be considered as having dropped his or her defenses, i.e. staring at a Medusa.
Just because an attack missed doesn't mean a character should be considered resting, asleep, or defenseless either.

 

[keterys]

speaks to an issue I have with 3e/4e - the math is too fine-tuned. In 1e/2e you could chuck a 3rd-level character in with a party of 6ths and it'd have a chance of surviving long enough to catch up a bit. Not so much these days...

I'm not sure that's as much different as you suggest it is. Especially if you had new people come in with less gear (existing chars tended to acquire a _lot_), the difference could be very pronounced in 1e/2e.

And attack bonuses have basically scaled around the same throughout D&D, so that's about the same.

4E is slightly easier in that 3 levels makes a _LOT_ less difference in power level of spells.

 

[Hussar]

I gotta agree with Lanefan on this one. While sure, the 3rd level character is weaker than the 6th level one, because the monsters don't particularly scale - HP are very flat, AC doesn't vary a whole lot - the low level character can still contribute fairly well. 42 hp giants and all that.

Although, to be honest, my beef with high lethality is that players very quickly stop investing in the game. Why would they? It takes a very special sort of player to put the same amount of work into his 5th character as his 1st. Particularly if that 5th character comes up in a fairly short amount of time.

 

[Mattachine]

Your point about lower-level replacements voiding the adventure speaks to an issue I have with 3e/4e - the math is too fine-tuned. In 1e/2e you could chuck a 3rd-level character in with a party of 6ths and it'd have a chance of surviving long enough to catch up a bit. Not so much these days...

I usually have replacements come in a level or so below the party average, but I put a floor on it to prevent too much backsliding.

Lanefan

In 4e, being 2-3 levels lower is a disadvantage, but HP will still be close, and attack bonuses will be off by 2-3 points. Powers will do a similar amount of damage, but the low level character will have fewer of them.

In older editions, being level 3 instead of 6 will mean about half the hit points, in addition to having lower attacks and saves (as above). That is a huge difference, especially because monster damage rises. The effectiveness of spells rises dramatically in older editions as well.

In any case, this comes down to preferred play style, like so many of these discussions. There isn't a best way.

For game mechanics, I would simply like to see clear guidelines for using SoD, not using SoD, and using something in the middle (like hp threshold or SSSoD).

As for dealing with character death, that can be dealt with in a couple of concrete, game mechanical ways, too.

Give character creation the possibility of being fast and easy if so desired.

Make combats shorter--I love all the things characters can do in 3e and 4e . . . but combat is so, so long. If a PC is taken out of a combat because of an early SoD (even paralysis), that player might need to wait 45 min to an hour to play again. Faster, but still interesting, combats would deal with a major SoD issue.

 

[Kingreaper]

What would *YOU* do if a player said they look Medusa in the eye?

Is it Medusa Gorgon, the Epic Tier Solo, or is it A medusa, one of the myriad low-level threats?

Because looking Medusa Gorgon in the eye is very different from looking a feeble copy in the eye. If someone wanted to look A medusa in the eye, they'd take a penalty to their defenses/save against it. And that's all.

If they STARED it in the eye they'd be automatically hit in my 4e game.

If they looked Medusa Gorgon (A UNIQUE INDIVIDUAL THAT IS NOT IN THE D&D MONSTER MANUALS) in the eye: they'd turn to stone unless they had some special resistance. Which at epic level, when approaching Medusa Gorgon, they almost certainly would.

(although, to be honest, I'm not sure why Medusa Gorgon's eyes are relevant, a lesser medusa may only petrify with its eyes, but with Medusa Gorgon seeing her clearly is enough to petrify someone, even if her eyes are closed)

 

[Balesir]

Again, I remain rather shocked that this is even a conversation.

Fair enough; I am somewhat shocked that someone is being quite so dogmatic about a myth that:

- was passed on orally for at least 600 years, with all the variation in form that that implies,

- has clear links with a mythical monster in Babylonian tales that Gilgamesh killed without so much as a mirrored shield,

- was different again in its earliest written incarnations to those taken by Hollywood as 'canon' and that were written at least 400 years later than the earliest written versions.

Only the Romans seem to have been prescriptive concerning Medusa's looks (which is odd in the extreme if looking at her automatically turned the viewer to stone!) and powers, let alone the mode and identity of her killer. But, then, the Romans seem to have been prescriptive about a lot; I think they had issues with ambiguity, poor dears.

In short, I have absolutely no problem envisioning Medusa's gaze or visage (be it The Medusa or A Medusa) petrifying by degrees. If anything, I have more problems visualising it petrifying instantaneously, but that is merely an aesthetic thing...

The Greeks, in fact, used images of the head of Medusa near doors and arches to ward off evil and enemies from their homes and sanctuaries. Maybe that means the effect affects 'enemies only'? How's that for an interpretation?

 

[Hassassin]

In 4e, being 2-3 levels lower is a disadvantage, but HP will still be close, and attack bonuses will be off by 2-3 points. Powers will do a similar amount of damage, but the low level character will have fewer of them.

In older editions, being level 3 instead of 6 will mean about half the hit points, in addition to having lower attacks and saves (as above). That is a huge difference, especially because monster damage rises. The effectiveness of spells rises dramatically in older editions as well.

I agree with [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] that the difference is smaller pre-3e. In earlier editions your AC and damage don't increase significantly, only your hp and to hit. When both sides of the equation increase, growth is much quicker and your ability to damage enemies diminishes more quickly. 3e is somewhat worse than 4e, because its progression is faster at least during low-mid levels.

 

[keterys]

I actually think the reason it mattered less in older editions was almost always that combats were generally easier - attrition was more of a concern (less the battle, more the war), so you'd run into a bunch of low level monsters (ex: orcs) or a single monster that didn't last long (golem, whatever) even at high levels. You'd deal with it quickly and move on to the next thing, then the next. Very often encounters were also solved by thinking instead of statistics.

In an environment in which you frequently run into creatures lower than your level, or your party wasn't likely to die anyways, it's easy to foster a lowbie along. You could also do things like slap a stoneskin on someone and they'd be largely safe til it ran out

 

[Hussar]

And, let's not forget, with the AD&D xp tables, you generally would level up to 6th long before the 6th level character would hit 7th because xp, by and large, doubled every level.