[L&L] Balancing the Wizards in D&D

Yeah, I don't buy that spot of research either. Everyone I know spends more money on their hobbies in their 40's, than they did in their younger years.

They may be spending it on other hobbies and its possible that many respondents, assuming there really were respondents, were also lapsed gamers.

I spend far, far more money on gaming today, than I ever did in my teens, twenties, or even thirties.


Agreed. Only one person I've gamed with in the last 5 years is under 35 right now. Most are nearing or surpassing 40. Heck, I don't think most of the people that played D&D Miniatures were much under 30 even. I know I spent close to 5k on those.
 

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Man, it WotC didn't care about older gamers, they wouldn't be republishing the 1e core books. They also probably wouldn't be using 5e's hypothetical ability to replicate an older-e feel as a selling point. Clearly grognards make up a not-insignificant portion of the audience, here.

In other news, sleep can apparently end an entire encounter before it begins, again, so it really does sound like the designers are paying attention to those who felt that 4e's wizard was an unsatisfying bag of blah.
 

Yeah, I have to agree. I think the same thing was true of 2e, its worst features are where it failed to dare to fix 1e.

This is very true, and I love 2E still. Of course when they actually do fix the broken things there's also a backlash as we see with the Edition Wars because some people don't want the broken fixed, in some cases because they don't like change, in others because they want to have the supreme character.
 

This is very true, and I love 2E still. Of course when they actually do fix the broken things there's also a backlash as we see with the Edition Wars because some people don't want the broken fixed, in some cases because they don't like change, in others because they want to have the supreme character.

Or because they don't think they're broken or the "fix" includes costs worse than the initial problem...

Let's not spin everything negatively against people who don't want to fix what you want fixed.
 

In other news, sleep can apparently end an entire encounter before it begins, again, so it really does sound like the designers are paying attention to those who felt that 4e's wizard was an unsatisfying bag of blah.
So the designers are listening to people complain that something couldn't do something regardless of the fact that it did it exceedingly well (you should probably look at some of the discussions of 4E's Sleep). Yeah, that sounds like a valuable use of their time...
 

Or because they don't think they're broken or the "fix" includes costs worse than the initial problem...

Let's not spin everything negatively against people who don't want to fix what you want fixed.

I simply pointed out that some people didn't want things fixed, for whatever (and varying reasons) including actually LIKING broken things.

And nothing fixed so far has been "worse" than the original problem, each edition of the game so far has been better than its preceding edition regardless of whether certain players' tastes adopted those changes. I still vastly prefer 2E to 3E but 3E was a better designed game even though it failed to fix a number of things that needed fixing.
 

You make a number of general points I largely agree with. I think you are overstating the likely naivete of the 3e designers.

Perhaps I am. However there are a number of other areas in the game's design where there are similar issues where the new mechanics completely change the balance of the game, particularly at high level (monsters getting ability score bonuses, fighters have to take a full-round action to make multiple attacks while casters can move-and-cast any standard action spell, the huge reduction in time required to prepare spells, the trivialization of spell interruption, cheap & easy access to wands/scrolls, a different saving throw structure where stat & spell level & caster level determine the difficulty and high-level warriors & monsters no longer have among the best saves in the game, multiclassing with caster levels).

It's been written that many of the core issues with 3.x didn't come up during the playtesting because the playtesters generally played the game as d20 AD&D, and thus many of the balance issues not coming to light until the game had been available for a couple of years. So that would indicate a certain naivete of the 3.x designers. I suspect that many of these issues took them as much by surprise as it did the rest of us. "Let's take AD&D but make the rules more logical and consistent, and let's get rid of some of those arbitrary restrictions and un-fun bits while we're at it."

I would say their effort here was quite successful in extending play into the higher levels, however they were under pressure to preserve the feel of these classic spells close to their the original text. To have even partially accomplished that feat was perhaps even evidence of the outright superiority of 3e to its predecessors.
They were successful in extending play into the higher levels, for better or worse. It seems like a lot of people don't actually like playing (or especially DMing) 3.x at high levels, although that's a gut feeling from reading message forums and not based on any actual data. I wouldn't say that it shows any "outright superiority." I would argue that BECMI D&D did a much better job of supporting play through high levels (36th) while remaining playable and retaining some measure of balance.

Someone on these forums -- my apologies but I can't remember who -- has frequently stated his belief that D&D is a 10-level game at its core, and I'm inclined to agree.

In hindsight, I would vehemently argue that half those spells should have been rewritten completely from scratch, for the reasons you stated. But at the time, such a choice would have been rated a strike against, evidence 3e was "not really D&D".
Rewriting them is one option, but yes, that could have gone into "not D&D territory."

Frankly, I think that the 7th-9th level spells should have been left for the Epic Level Handbook, as that would have matched their original concept much more closely (since by that level, 3e characters are no longer gaining a full level's worth of improvements). It was a huge mistake to start coming up with character abilities that are more epic than wish, miracle, time stop, or true resurrection. Those should represent the limits of mortal power, with everything else being scaled accordingly.

IMHO the majority of the 3.0 design problems stem from adhering too closely to the original material. 3.5 put a band-aid on a number of them, but I think it is Arcana Unearthed that shows us the real potential of a 3e-style system. It was easier for Monte because there were no expectations other than fun.
Agreed on adhering too closely to the original material. I don't know that straying from the original material in order to make a better-designed game was the answer, as that's very much what 4e did, and we see how divisive that was (I recognize 4e as a well-designed game, but I don't really like playing it). That original material is a big part of what gives D&D its identity.
 

CasvalRemDeikun said:
So the designers are listening to people complain that something couldn't do something regardless of the fact that it did it exceedingly well (you should probably look at some of the discussions of 4E's Sleep). Yeah, that sounds like a valuable use of their time...

Being capable of doing something when sufficiently twinked is not the same thing as doing it "exceedingly well."

Seriously, look at 1e sleep, then look at 4e sleep. If you don't agree that they were designed for very different purposes in play, I think we need to start at a more basic level to achieve a mutual understanding.
 

I simply pointed out that some people didn't want things fixed, for whatever (and varying reasons) including actually LIKING broken things.

And nothing fixed so far has been "worse" than the original problem, each edition of the game so far has been better than its preceding edition regardless of whether certain players' tastes adopted those changes. I still vastly prefer 2E to 3E but 3E was a better designed game even though it failed to fix a number of things that needed fixing.

Really? You get to decide what "better" is for everyone on the planet?
 

LoL, get some context. 3E was a better designed game than 2E, which was better designed than 1E and 4E was better designed than 3E. That's just objective fact because every edition thus far has learned from and mechanically improved upon things of the past. It's evolution. OD&D was the first and had the most holes because, well, it was first. There was really nothing to expand upon but the original idea.

AD&D took that game, added to it and expanded upon it.

2E did the same and fixed/codified a few things from 1E.

3E, more of the same.

4E, ditto.

That's not to say everyone will prefer any particular edition. As I said I prefer 2E to 3E even though 3E is a better designed game.

I also prefer older video games and hate Halo/God of War/etc. even though the latter are better designed games. I'd rather play Frogger.

There are also better ways of cooking, but making an old barrel in to a smoker is still awesome for brisket and ribs.

Classic sports cars handle like crap and ride like a buckboard but a late 60's Mustang is still cool as heck.

Just a few examples.
 

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