Google "megadungeon." They're out there, and selling in quite large numbers. And that's only one form of multi-year campaign. If you don't just play D&D, you'll find other much longer campaigns out there too (Pelgrane tend to do them for their games, the best campaigns in the world by popular acclaim are very long ones for Call of Cthulhu and WFRP, etc).
D&D 5E "Labels" and D&D Gaming
Google "megadungeon." They're out there, and selling in quite large numbers. And that's only one form of multi-year campaign. If you don't just play D&D, you'll find other much longer campaigns out there too (Pelgrane tend to do them for their games, the best campaigns in the world by popular acclaim are very long ones for Call of Cthulhu and WFRP, etc).
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
And for quite a few, that means more like 2-3 years. And Paizo is aware of that so they know quite well they’re serving that market that wants multi-year campaigns.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
It... It literally says it was based on internal analysis...
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
It also literally says the bracket was arbitrarily chosen. And exactly what internal analysis is going to tell them the age of their customers? Keep in mind that their ‘internal’ analysis is what had them setting box set price points at levels too low to make any money.
Hussar
Legend
Hey, I ran the World's Largest Dungeon. I LOVE mega dungeons. But, here's the thing. Even the WLD only lasted about 2 years. @Lanefan's definition isn't a couple of years, that's the short end of the stick. He's talking about campaigns lasting ten years or more. Unless, @Lanefan, I'm wrong in that? Would a 2 year campaign qualify as a "long" campaign. Note, that's just on the long end of what WotC said was average.
Again, let's keep our terms straight. If by long, we mean 2-3 years, then, sure, I'll agree that there's lots of groups in that range. But, I don't think that's what @Lanefan, or the OP, were talking about. So, can we get a definition of what people mean by "long" before we keep talking past each other?
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
@Hussar - I think of 'long' as pretty much anything 5 years or more.
'Midrange' would be maybe 18 months to 5-ish years.
Anything shorter is 'short'.
That said, there's variance. A 'long' campaign might be only 3 or 4 years if it's played several times a week during that span; while a game that only plays once monthly but goes on for three years might not have got out of 'short' yet.
One can also use session count as a definer but that's got issues too; some groups run 4 hours per session while other average 10 hours or more. That said, 250 typical 4-hour sessions is getting into 'long' territory while anything less than 50-60 is short, with midrange of course falling between these.
'Midrange' would be maybe 18 months to 5-ish years.
Anything shorter is 'short'.
That said, there's variance. A 'long' campaign might be only 3 or 4 years if it's played several times a week during that span; while a game that only plays once monthly but goes on for three years might not have got out of 'short' yet.
One can also use session count as a definer but that's got issues too; some groups run 4 hours per session while other average 10 hours or more. That said, 250 typical 4-hour sessions is getting into 'long' territory while anything less than 50-60 is short, with midrange of course falling between these.
I guess my 103 session 5.5 year Loudwater FR campaign was 'midrange' - it felt pretty long at the time! But we only went level 1-29 in 4e D&D; afaics a 'long' campaign is pretty much impossible using 3e/4e/5e rules with the standard assumption of a single PC group.
But I had the same issue running 1e AD&D in the 1980s/early 90s; we were playing an hour a day in school lunch breaks and after a few years the PCs had umpteen levels and were outside the assumptions of the system. So I don't think advancing out of play is a new thing in D&D due to the level-up paradigm - only BECMI really stretched things out to allow 250+ session campaigns with one group.
I've never quite grasped how exactly people do multi-PC 'campaigns', rather than multiple campaigns in the same world/setting. I've experimented with running multiple interacting PC groups at same time in same setting, but that doesn't stop PCs 'levelling out'. I'm starting to think that if I want a genuine long term campaign I should use a non-level system, like D6 System or BRP, with advancement that gradually slows off and plateaus.
GrahamWills
Hero
From my perspective, very long campaigns were common in the past simply because there wasn’t much choice. There were only a few game systems, essentially one per genre, and each of them only had one or maybe two supported worlds to play in. So GMs would craft one world and play in it and the cost to create a new one would be more than the value of the new stories that could be told in it.
D&D, in particular, allows for a very wide variety of play styles, and the generic fantasy worlds that, as far as I can see, 90% of very long campaigns run in are particularly adaptable. So it’s easily possible to play and not get bored with the same old thing.
in my case, I ran a Middle-Earth / Rolemaster campaign for about 5 years, and a D&D 3.0 / 3.5 / 4E campaign for ages (you can work out how long based on the fact that it started in 3.0 and finished in 4E).
The investment cost of these systems is high. We’d never have switched to HERO or GURPS to play the same sort of game — and the D&D generic fantasy worlds are pretty much all alike. I’m confident I cou,d take a character from one of my long fantasy D&D campaigns and run it in anyone else‘s fantasy D&D campaign with a few changes, but not changing the essence of the character.
The Living Greyhawk and similar campaigns are examples of that; a shared world with millions of characters who could just as easily be run in home games: D&D campaigns are generic campaigns that have wide appeal and adaptability.
Nowadays, however, we have more systems that can be learned rapidly and that are worth switching too. If I want to play a vampire hunter, I don’t have to choose between cleric and paladin — I can run Night’s Black Agents and have a far more suitable system for it without a huge set-up cost; the resources available are enormous.
Of course, for many people, they enjoy doing the same sort of style of play over and over. There’s an analogy with dining out I’ll make: A lot of people, when they go to new restaurant, try their favorite dishes. They get their pleasure from repeated enjoyment of a known good thing. Other people try the restaurant’s speciality, or something new — they get their pleasure from a new experience. Gaming is similar I think; some people enjoy the known goodness of an experience that is almost certain to be fun. Others are willing to be disappointed because a new good experience is what they are looking for, and so they want to try new systems.
Those who play long fantasy campaigns are in the “known goodness” camp. i’ve played in such games and campaigns for 30 years, and they deliver consistent enjoyment. But I also play/run shorter 2-4 year campaigns with other systems, and while they take more effort which is hard to sustain for decades, they have delivered a stronger experience for me.
D&D, in particular, allows for a very wide variety of play styles, and the generic fantasy worlds that, as far as I can see, 90% of very long campaigns run in are particularly adaptable. So it’s easily possible to play and not get bored with the same old thing.
in my case, I ran a Middle-Earth / Rolemaster campaign for about 5 years, and a D&D 3.0 / 3.5 / 4E campaign for ages (you can work out how long based on the fact that it started in 3.0 and finished in 4E).
The investment cost of these systems is high. We’d never have switched to HERO or GURPS to play the same sort of game — and the D&D generic fantasy worlds are pretty much all alike. I’m confident I cou,d take a character from one of my long fantasy D&D campaigns and run it in anyone else‘s fantasy D&D campaign with a few changes, but not changing the essence of the character.
The Living Greyhawk and similar campaigns are examples of that; a shared world with millions of characters who could just as easily be run in home games: D&D campaigns are generic campaigns that have wide appeal and adaptability.
Nowadays, however, we have more systems that can be learned rapidly and that are worth switching too. If I want to play a vampire hunter, I don’t have to choose between cleric and paladin — I can run Night’s Black Agents and have a far more suitable system for it without a huge set-up cost; the resources available are enormous.
Of course, for many people, they enjoy doing the same sort of style of play over and over. There’s an analogy with dining out I’ll make: A lot of people, when they go to new restaurant, try their favorite dishes. They get their pleasure from repeated enjoyment of a known good thing. Other people try the restaurant’s speciality, or something new — they get their pleasure from a new experience. Gaming is similar I think; some people enjoy the known goodness of an experience that is almost certain to be fun. Others are willing to be disappointed because a new good experience is what they are looking for, and so they want to try new systems.
Those who play long fantasy campaigns are in the “known goodness” camp. i’ve played in such games and campaigns for 30 years, and they deliver consistent enjoyment. But I also play/run shorter 2-4 year campaigns with other systems, and while they take more effort which is hard to sustain for decades, they have delivered a stronger experience for me.
MoonSong
Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Haven't you heard the news? Diamond has officially closed for the time being. There'll be no new comics for a few months, stores worldwide are closed as non-essential retail, people have less disposable income, AT&T is looking forward to reduce costs and DC as a whole is bleeding money, and Marvel is out being Marvel.
When the dust settles there won't be any stores left for Diamond to sell to. Comics are already dead.
fearsomepirate
Hero
I'll bet campaign length looks like a bell curve.
So it's less a "death spiral" and more a "death deadness."
So it's less a "death spiral" and more a "death deadness."
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