D&D 5E last encounter was totally one-sided

[CapnZapp]

Also, I'd caution you using your personal experience as some sort of declaration about how much combat is assumed.

Heh

 

[Helldritch]

Because it has to be. We've been over this dozens of times, over dozens of years. You don't need an equal amount of page count for things like roleplaying and exploration because it's easier to mitigate. But that does not mean that combat takes up more of the actual game play. By that flawed logic, there would be 10x as many casters as fighter PCs because spells take up a lot more page count. It simply isn't true.

Also, I'd caution you using your personal experience as some sort of declaration about how much combat is assumed. For one, table preferences vary. Heck, the last time I ran ToEE, we went an entire 10 hour session with no combat at all. Rather the session was a big political manipulation fest between the PCs trying to get the temple factions to fight against each other. The owner of my local FLGS has only about 1 combat per session, which is less than 25% of the time spent, and that's a typical session for them. But more importantly (taking your and my anecdotal experiences out), the book tells you that there are three pillars, and they are of equal importance.

Nothing but love for that post

If RPG were only about combat, they would be boooooooring. It is the roleplay aspect that draws people in. We can't expect a module/AP to deal with all possible reactions from all PCs in the world. Role play will only go so far as some guidelines as to what to do. The rest is where it should be, firmly in the hands of the DM.

I'm now DMing with relatively short sessions of 5-6 hours. Some sessions are all about combat and in some other only role play is done. No combat and very few die rolls. Heck, one of my group spend two whole sessions discussing with a lich they were supposed to kill. Now its a valued ally. Even I didn't see that one coming, much less the players. Role play can sometimes lead to strange things...

 

[Celtavian]

Interesting. Even assuming that on average each orc only gets one attack on the party before dying, 5e's bounded accuracy was intended to make that orc horde coming for them a threat. Its not like 3.5 ed where they'd need 20s to even hit the party members.

How do you think the intentions of the system would break down in the case of that horde?

I think Bounded Accuracy applies more to monsters than PCs. PCs have the means to either avoid direct combat with battlefield control, concealment, or mobility or can ramp up AC to the 20s plus fairly easy, especially if you allow multiclassing. Defeating an orc horde would mostly be an exercise in combat field control and ranged assaulting with maybe some summoning for level 15 characters. AoE alone would probably kill quite a few fairly quickly. I imagine if you were running a pure melee or melee heavy group, the orc horde would be a lot more scary. If you had a mostly ranged group with lots of magic, orc horde is not going to be able to bring to bear their power. Then again, that is likely how it would be in a story, so I'm not too worried about it.

 

[Celtavian]

@Celtavian
I am pretty sure that our playstyle is very different. Who said anything about 300 "standard" orcs?
A war party will have standard orcs yes. But it will also have Eyes of Gruumsh, War Leaders, Claws of Luthic, Zombies and Skeletons from priest and many other special orcs. Even if 80% of the horde is standard, that leaves us with 60 non standard orcs. More than enough to kill your 15th level characters. Believe me, whatever your character have in reserve, I could manage them.

Once I was asked by a DM to help him out with his group. They were level 24th and they were about to slay all gods in the Legend and lore book. A typical Montyhaul campaing that went wrong. With the group, I bet with them that I could kill them with a hundred ogres and one mage level 12. They all laughed at me. 1 hour later. The group was dead. The funny thing is that my group would never have fallen for that simple trap.

All this to say that if your group isn't afraid of a 300 orc rampaging group. They should be. Maybe that is why you consider that 5ed is failing...

Should level 15 characters be afraid of 300 rampaging orcs? I don't think they should. 300 orcs is a fairly small horde. I think six level 15 characters should be able to kill an orc horde that size fairly easy. Level 15 is serious power and should be serious power in a cinematic sword and sorcery game like D&D. A ten thousand orc horde? Now that should scare them. That's a worthy fight for level 15 D&D characters. That's an epic fight against a horde threatening an entire realm they are dutybound to protect. Three hundred orcs? That's a tiny horde threatening some villages or a small city. A 300 orc horde would be something I might consider for 4th to 7th level characters for them to kill over the course of an entire adventure arc.

Most DMs can concoct a way to kill their players in a one time encounter where they set them up in some kind of situation where you exploit their weaknesses and find a creature capable of defeating their strengths. This isn't any kind of challenge for a DM. "Gee, I killed my players to prove I could" is not a statement I'm looking to make. The challenge is making the game fun and challenging at the same time on a consistent basis, not the occasional one off challenge with artificial time limits, environmental factors that take away all their abilities they enjoy using, and other factors you can't use every single encounter.

I've not made a single statement that 5E is "failing" because that is far too big a claim. I and other folks like CapnZapp have pointed out areas of the game that have to be watched carefully because they provide players with an out-sized advantage in a very large number of situations that make the game trivial. Does that mean we can never challenge the players? No, it does not. What it does mean is the players can take on far more powerful creatures and situations than the CR system takes into account, meaning the DM has to modify often because MM monsters were not designed very well for challenging PCs at higher levels. Specifically, solitary creatures are far too limited and easily exploited by smart players using the base abilities of the game. It's not an insurmountable challenge, but it's one to be aware of.

As far as a specific aspect of the game I'm not caring for is the fast combat. For some reason beating a dragon in three or four rounds feels unsatisfying as a DM. I know this is working as intended, but an ancient dragon going down in 3 to 6 rounds (18 to 36 seconds) feels anticlimactic. The only way I get around this feel is to get rid of the idea of six second rounds and instead move to the idea of much longer rounds (1 minute or more of game time). It feels more cinematic if the fights seem longer in the game world. This is a personal style preference than a criticism of the game.

Suffice it to say 5E isn't "failing." It has some areas of concern that take some work to clean up to get a feel folks like myself and more than a few others want in combat.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I've not made a single statement that 5E is "failing" because that is far too big a claim. I and other folks like CapnZapp have pointed out areas of the game that have to be watched carefully because they provide players with an out-sized advantage in a very large number of situations that make the game trivial. Does that mean we can never challenge the players? No, it does not. What it does mean is the players can take on far more powerful creatures and situations than the CR system takes into account, meaning the DM has to modify often because MM monsters were not designed very well for challenging PCs at higher levels. Specifically, solitary creatures are far too limited and easily exploited by smart players using the base abilities of the game. It's not an insurmountable challenge, but it's one to be aware of..

And we've been saying, especially in the context of this thread, is the problem is not because the monsters are trivial and you as the DM needs to modify them because they're poorly designed. They aren't. As the OP clearly illustrates, the problem is the DM not playing the monsters/NPCs up to their expected capability, and therefore, many of your concerns are caused by poor DMing, not poor game design. The entirety of your complaint (areas have to be watched carefully because players make them trivial, PCs can take out far more powerful monsters, etc) has little to do with the actual design if the DM can't be bothered to even be familiar with what those monsters can do in the first place, or play them as they would normally behave.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Should level 15 characters be afraid of 300 rampaging orcs? I don't think they should. 300 orcs is a fairly small horde. I think six level 15 characters should be able to kill an orc horde that size fairly easy. Level 15 is serious power and should be serious power in a cinematic sword and sorcery game like D&D. A ten thousand orc horde? Now that should scare them. That's a worthy fight for level 15 D&D characters. That's an epic fight against a horde threatening an entire realm they are dutybound to protect. Three hundred orcs? That's a tiny horde threatening some villages or a small city. A 300 orc horde would be something I might consider for 4th to 7th level characters for them to kill over the course of an entire adventure arc.

Most DMs can concoct a way to kill their players in a one time encounter where they set them up in some kind of situation where you exploit their weaknesses and find a creature capable of defeating their strengths. This isn't any kind of challenge for a DM. "Gee, I killed my players to prove I could" is not a statement I'm looking to make. The challenge is making the game fun and challenging at the same time on a consistent basis, not the occasional one off challenge with artificial time limits, environmental factors that take away all their abilities they enjoy using, and other factors you can't use every single encounter.

I've not made a single statement that 5E is "failing" because that is far too big a claim. I and other folks like CapnZapp have pointed out areas of the game that have to be watched carefully because they provide players with an out-sized advantage in a very large number of situations that make the game trivial. Does that mean we can never challenge the players? No, it does not. What it does mean is the players can take on far more powerful creatures and situations than the CR system takes into account, meaning the DM has to modify often because MM monsters were not designed very well for challenging PCs at higher levels. Specifically, solitary creatures are far too limited and easily exploited by smart players using the base abilities of the game. It's not an insurmountable challenge, but it's one to be aware of.

As far as a specific aspect of the game I'm not caring for is the fast combat. For some reason beating a dragon in three or four rounds feels unsatisfying as a DM. I know this is working as intended, but an ancient dragon going down in 3 to 6 rounds (18 to 36 seconds) feels anticlimactic. The only way I get around this feel is to get rid of the idea of six second rounds and instead move to the idea of much longer rounds (1 minute or more of game time). It feels more cinematic if the fights seem longer in the game world. This is a personal style preference than a criticism of the game.

Suffice it to say 5E isn't "failing." It has some areas of concern that take some work to clean up to get a feel folks like myself and more than a few others want in combat.

I think that 6 people facing 300 people should feel like the situation is unwinnable if it comes down to combat. There are definitely ways I could see this going in favor of the PCs (guerilla tactics and area of effect spells really being the big ones), but regardless of exactly how it plays out, 6 people facing 300 should feel fear.

The point being that your players don't feel fear because the 300 are merely orcs, and they are 15th level PCs. That requires an awareness of the mechanics of the game that really interferes with things. The fact that your PCs simply go "Oh, 300 orcs? Hah....CHARGE!!!!" is more of a problem than the game design, I would say.

The fact that mechanically a group of 6 high level characters can likely defeat a horde of low level ones doesn't mean that the PCs should behave that way. I mean, for all they know, that's 300 level 15 Orc fighters, barbarians, and sorcerers. Each of those orcs could be every bit as capable as the PCs. The fact that the PCs behave as if they know they are the heroes in the story is an issue, in my opinion.

 

[Helldritch]

I can assure you that in 5ed, if my players were to see 300 orcs coming at them from all angles, they would flee.

Yes there are some circumstances in which those same 300 orcs could be vanquished I can give that. But there are so much more situations in which those same 300 orcs could wipe out the group that I do believe that my point is valid. 300 orcs in a mile long 5' sinous corridor in which a single warrior wait for the horde to come at him could give the edge to the lone warrior. But if you take into account the scene in the Lord of the Ring, then all groups should flee or face certain death.

5ed can do that. Previous edition would only make the players smile and say:" Let's make some orc kebab!"

 

[Celtavian]

I think that 6 people facing 300 people should feel like the situation is unwinnable if it comes down to combat. There are definitely ways I could see this going in favor of the PCs (guerilla tactics and area of effect spells really being the big ones), but regardless of exactly how it plays out, 6 people facing 300 should feel fear.

The point being that your players don't feel fear because the 300 are merely orcs, and they are 15th level PCs. That requires an awareness of the mechanics of the game that really interferes with things. The fact that your PCs simply go "Oh, 300 orcs? Hah....CHARGE!!!!" is more of a problem than the game design, I would say.

Once again putting words in that I didn't say. They most certainly wouldn't say, "Charge." They would scout it, say 300 orc horde with a leader, probably port or transport in, take out the leaders, and nuke a major portion of the central command, adios out, piecemeal the rest of the orcs. Tactically, a group of level 15 characters with a mix of magic and martial might have a lot of power at their beck and call. They wouldn't have much fear of an orc warband. By 15th level they've fought dragons, demons, giants, and far worse than a group of 300 orcs. It's not going to scare them and it shouldn't. At that level the wizards are accessing magic that allows them to traverse the world fairly quickly, druids are turning into elementals and summoning animal hordes, fighters can take fire breath weapons full force and smile, paladins are immune to most anything and have insane saves, rogues can hide where no orc would have a shot at seeing them nearly any round, and clerics can heal a lot of damage as well as wade into the middle of an orc horde where any orc coming near them is likely do die in a single round. Can you imagine a level 15 war cleric wading into an orc horde with a higher level spirtual guardians going in plate armor buffed up doing not much but using the dodge action. Orcs dying every round by the dozen.

I don't know if you've played a level 15 character or run them, they are damn powerful. Not just damage output, but overall party capabilities. If the orc horde is smart, they wouldn't even try to take on a group of level 15 characters. If they knew whatever city or village they planned to attack had a group of lvl 15 characters protecting it, they would go elsewhere.

The fact that mechanically a group of 6 high level characters can likely defeat a horde of low level ones doesn't mean that the PCs should behave that way. I mean, for all they know, that's 300 level 15 Orc fighters, barbarians, and sorcerers. Each of those orcs could be every bit as capable as the PCs. The fact that the PCs behave as if they know they are the heroes in the story is an issue, in my opinion.

You think 6 characters that are in essence the most powerful warriors, archers, warlocks, wizards, sorcerers, rogues, and so on in an epic fantasy world with dragons, giants, demons, and the like should fear 300 humanoid orcs? If the orcs are every bit as capable as the PCs, that game world is extremely skewed. I like the players to feel powerful. They should reach a point where anything less than a legendary orc horde the size of The Mongols will not cause them trouble. A small 300 orc horde should be something a level 15 character deals with fairly easy. By that level they should be venturing onto other planes or dealing with world or realm shattering threats.

If you make them 300 legendary level 15 warrior orc heroes resurrected from some ancient orc graveyard by a powerful orc necromancer intent on taking on the world, then cool. Those 300 orcs should be real scary.

My assumption is we're talking standard 300 orc horde with a mix of clerics, warleaders, and the like. I think taking care of that is not what you're calling on level 15 heroes for. They're taking on far more potent enemies by that time. No one is saying you can't make 300 orcs a challenge, but I am saying that a fairly standard 300 orc horde should not be much of an issue for level 15 characters.

 

[Celtavian]

I can assure you that in 5ed, if my players were to see 300 orcs coming at them from all angles, they would flee.

Yes there are some circumstances in which those same 300 orcs could be vanquished I can give that. But there are so much more situations in which those same 300 orcs could wipe out the group that I do believe that my point is valid. 300 orcs in a mile long 5' sinous corridor in which a single warrior wait for the horde to come at him could give the edge to the lone warrior. But if you take into account the scene in the Lord of the Ring, then all groups should flee or face certain death.

5ed can do that. Previous edition would only make the players smile and say:" Let's make some orc kebab!"

This part is true. In 5E there is more concern than previous editions. In previous editions it wouldn't even be a contest. in 5E, they at least still have to use tactics and planning. Just because it wouldn't be hard, doesn't mean it wouldn't take planning and work in 5E. They can't just jump in the middle and start swinging. And it would be damn long too with the absence of disposable magic like scrolls and wands. So long it would get boring doing it and my players might suicide after rolling dice that often. I as a DM might commit suicide rolling that battle out in 5E.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I think that 6 people facing 300 people should feel like the situation is unwinnable if it comes down to combat. There are definitely ways I could see this going in favor of the PCs (guerilla tactics and area of effect spells really being the big ones), but regardless of exactly how it plays out, 6 people facing 300 should feel fear.

The point being that your players don't feel fear because the 300 are merely orcs, and they are 15th level PCs. That requires an awareness of the mechanics of the game that really interferes with things. The fact that your PCs simply go "Oh, 300 orcs? Hah....CHARGE!!!!" is more of a problem than the game design, I would say.

The fact that mechanically a group of 6 high level characters can likely defeat a horde of low level ones doesn't mean that the PCs should behave that way. I mean, for all they know, that's 300 level 15 Orc fighters, barbarians, and sorcerers. Each of those orcs could be every bit as capable as the PCs. The fact that the PCs behave as if they know they are the heroes in the story is an issue, in my opinion.

I can assure you that in 5ed, if my players were to see 300 orcs coming at them from all angles, they would flee.

Yes there are some circumstances in which those same 300 orcs could be vanquished I can give that. But there are so much more situations in which those same 300 orcs could wipe out the group that I do believe that my point is valid. 300 orcs in a mile long 5' sinous corridor in which a single warrior wait for the horde to come at him could give the edge to the lone warrior. But if you take into account the scene in the Lord of the Ring, then all groups should flee or face certain death.

5ed can do that. Previous edition would only make the players smile and say:" Let's make some orc kebab!"

Yeah, it's one of the things I like most about 5e. BA has made lower level mobs relevant to higher level PCs. I love that.

Once again putting words in that I didn't say. They most certainly wouldn't say, "Charge." They would scout it, say 300 orc horde with a leader, probably port or transport in, take out the leaders, and nuke a major portion of the central command, adios out, piecemeal the rest of the orcs. Tactically, a group of level 15 characters with a mix of magic and martial might have a lot of power at their beck and call. They wouldn't have much fear of an orc warband. By 15th level they've fought dragons, demons, giants, and far worse than a group of 300 orcs. It's not going to scare them and it shouldn't. At that level the wizards are accessing magic that allows them to traverse the world fairly quickly, druids are turning into elementals and summoning animal hordes, fighters can take fire breath weapons full force and smile, paladins are immune to most anything and have insane saves, rogues can hide where no orc would have a shot at seeing them nearly any round, and clerics can heal a lot of damage as well as wade into the middle of an orc horde where any orc coming near them is likely do die in a single round. Can you imagine a level 15 war cleric wading into an orc horde with a higher level spirtual guardians going in plate armor buffed up doing not much but using the dodge action. Orcs dying every round by the dozen.

I don't know if you've played a level 15 character or run them, they are damn powerful. Not just damage output, but overall party capabilities. If the orc horde is smart, they wouldn't even try to take on a group of level 15 characters. If they knew whatever city or village they planned to attack had a group of lvl 15 characters protecting it, they would go elsewhere.

.

Again, I think there is a major difference in game play here. You seem to play orcs as if they just sit around waiting to be attacked. And when they do, they fall apart. I have played 15th level PCs (by the end of RoT), and while they are really powerful, I think you're really overestimating them. To use your example, the minute a 15th level war cleric (just so happens my 15th level PC was a tempest cleric) walks in with spiritual guardians up, the orcs send Nurtured Ones of Yurtrus.

Boom! Boom! Boom! Explody diseased bits everywhere and next thing you know that cleric is poisoned and suffers disadvantage on all rolls. Not to mention the flat out straight damage taken. And then you figure the orcs would use their aggressive trait to move in and attack, and then their normal move to leave again. AT some point, the cleric is going to lose concentration, and won't last very long. A 15th level cleric is only going to have about 100 hit points.

That's just one example. Another is to have Red Fang orcs cast darkness (of which they are immune to) to wreck havoc in the combat area. another is that they WOULD attack the town, and use the villagers as tools against the PCs (hostages, force the PCs to abandon their plans because they have to rescue the townsfolk, etc). So yeah, I think a battalion of 300 orcs has a pretty good risk to a high level party, especially if you play them like orcs would behave, and not just bags of HPs that just sit there waiting to be killed.