D&D 5E last encounter was totally one-sided

[hawkeyefan]

Depends on the book and characters. Elric was capable of destroying nations while other characters like Aragorn have to stay out of the way of even twenty orcs and Conan is between the two extremes. All three writers were good in my opinion. It is important that a DM have an idea of what level of power he wants to base the internal consistency of the world.

I think my biggest problem is the limited nature of higher level creatures. When players are getting spells like wall of force and abilities like high DC stuns, monsters are still just big bags of hit points with fairly straightforward capabilities. There's a lack of tactical capability by mariliths, balors, dragons, and the like. It's real easy for PCs to spread out to mitigate their best attacks and match monster mobility and damage, especially for ranged attackers which tend to dominate my games due to the extreme advantage of ranged attacking in this game. Even in 3E they made being able to move and use a powerful ranged attack limited. It was a serious feat to fire an arrow and move your full movement between shots. Not so in 5E. And I'm seeing why this was something 3E designers avoided. Ranged parties hit, then move to cover. They really hammer big bad martial creatures like dragons and balors. It's kind of a pain in the behind as a DM. I'm trying to find a modification for this that allows the creature to close the distance and not negate the players' ranged capabilities that satisfies my imagination as to how this should look on the battlefield. It's taking some work.

Right now it comes down to the demon having to completely avoid showing himself because if he comes up for air, it gets focus fired and killed way too quickly. I do not like that at all. Yes. I already know I could come up with some environment that mitigates this a bit, but doing this every time lessens the fearsomeness of the creature. It shouldn't need a highly beneficial environment to be effective in my opinion.

I won't disagree with your assessment...I even agree with it to an extent. I address it in my game in a number of ways, many of which have been discussed before and whichI won't bother going into now.

What I do want to mention, however, is that in your description and examples, the PCs are always master tacticians...moving from cover to attack and then back into cover, and so on. They work in unison, and they try to maximize their actions. But you never describe the monsters in the same way. Why do the PCs all have cover available, but not the monsters? Why do the monsters not attack from range? Why don't the monsters ready actions to shoot once a PC steps from cover or starts to cast a spell? Why don't the monsters attack and then take cover and repeat?

If the monsters behave tactically as well, that goes a long way to balancing things out. Whether it's 300 orcs or a Balor and some demonic underlings, there's no reason for them to sit around and wait to be slaughtered. Each and every enemy NPC should be behaving as tactically as the PCs. I mean, why wouldn't they? Does an orc think "I'm just an orc soldier...I'm expendable"? I think it's far better to play most enemies as if they want to win and more importantly to live.

My point being that not everything boils down to the abilities of the monsters; how they are run and what the DM chooses to have them do can be just as impactful, if not more so. You described monsters as bags of hit points...and it sounds like that's how you think of them. Players pick up on that...they know to expect it. They are not surprised by the creatures' behavior in any way. This plays into my last point...you have to surprise players. If every single enemy is run simply as an obstacle to be defeated, then that's all they'll be...and then your players won't behave as if they are anything more than that.

This is why your PCs wouldn't flee from a horde of orcs and why you don't even think that's odd. All you are thinking of is the game mechanics and not what those mechanics are designed to represent.

 

[Flamestrike]

And if you look at what I did, you would have seen I more than accounted for the artifacts by boosting the monsters substantially. If you look at the monsters I designed, they were far more powerful than the monsters in the actual module because of the power level of the players.

And it wasn't the only campaign I played, just the only one I posted on here. The other campaigns had the same issues, including the ones I didn't run.

Yeah man, I wasn't attacking you. Epic magic campaigns can be totally awesome.

My point was just when you deviate so dramatically from the baseline (effectively including several invisible and intangible 15 level PC spellcasters to help out the rest of the party, which doubles the PCs action economy and long rest resources, plus letting them stack multiple concentration effects) this throws out the maths and balance in unexpected ways.

Even including standard magic items has an effect on the maths. As can a house rule a lot less unbalanced than allowing stacking multiple concentration effects.

If every PC was loaded down with multiple artifacts, many of which had their own action economy and were capable of casting high-level spells, You not only double the amount of long rest resources in your party, you also double their action economy, mess with bounded accuracy and allow the stacking of numerous buffs with unforeseen consequences. Coupling that with nonenforcement of the rest paradigm or allowing the five-minute adventuring day, creates a party that punches well above it's apparent weight, plus other unforeseen consequences like making martial PCs obsolete.

A doubling of their resources alone should translate into you having to throw twice as many encounters at them per adventuring day (15 or so encounters per long rest) to account for the extra long rest resources, with each of those encounters at deadly level or above (to account for the extra action economy and bonus items).

 

[Flamestrike]

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth so much as going with how I took your earlier comments. You said no threat and no hesitation and no fear and easy and things like that.

What you're describing above is a much more thoughtful approach, and more carefully planned, and I would say more likely to succeed. The more direct approach I don't think would work; the example of the war cleric is indeed impressive, until he inevitably loses concentration and is then attacked by multiple enemies at once. Things might not go so great as you describe, at that point.

But really, the orc horde example isn't the point. The point is that there is just a logistical aspect at play. Why would any group of 6 people assume they could easily dispatch 300 other people? If you read a book where they did think that, wouldn't that resonate with you as false? Or forced? Or just bad writing? I'm not saying they can't face great odds and triumph...indeed that can and should happen. But it's when the characters start acting like they know this all with a certainty that things need to change.



I have played with high level characters. One PC group in my campaign is a mix of level 16 and 14. I know how capable they are.

My point, however, is more about how you address this in a game. Why would the orcs know that level 15 characters opposed them? They may know that capable adventurers opposed them, but they have no idea of levels and so on. Nor should the PCs, except as an abstract representation of overall ability. Characters don't walk around with experience bars floating above their heads like in video games.



My point is that it seems that your players know immediately that this would be a standard orc horde. They already know the capabilities based on their knowledge of the monster entry in the Monster Manual rather than anything else. My point is that from a fictional standpoint, why would any character assume that they and their 5 friends could easily defeat a force of 300? Especially when that force could include opponents just as capable as they are. Why can't a cleric of Gruumsh be as capable as a cleric of Torm? Why would the characters assume that?

Because the players assume it. And my assumption, which could be wrong, is that they assume that because you've given them no reason to assume anything else. You present the challenges directly out of the book, balanced to one degree or another to be easy or difficult or deadly or whatever....but they're all supposed to be defeated.

This is what I mean by shifting your DM style. Your players know how badass their characters are, and so the characters know it as well. You need to break them of that knowledge. Having a war band of orcs that consisted of some level 12 leaders and then an assortment of other orc threats would probably help out in that regard. Put them up against something that cannot be beaten in combat. Make them think of another solution. Surprise them a bit from time to time so that they stop assuming every encounter is meant to be defeated. You have to give them a little doubt.

All the fancy abilities in the world, min-maxed to the extreme, won't always save them. Make them know that.

Get out of my head man.

I'm currently working on an adventure for tomorrow's group of 12 level player characters. For a brief bit of background I decided that some orcs Have made a pact with a powerful Demon (a Glabrezu with a slightly expanded spell list). One of the orcs from the tribe became a warlock... and the rest is history. The tribe now contains Tanaruuks.

I decided that the orcs have gone on a rampage and taken over a dungeon near the town. One our PCs have already cleared back when they were second level (full of Kobolds). As our PCs will be leaving a separate dungeon that they cleared last week, they're going to bump into a 30 or so Kobold refugees fleeing the ork invasion. I have a couple of PCs with passive perceptions in excess of 20. I've already determined theyre going to spot the kobold scouts as they exit the dungeon.

Once they get eyes on the kobolds, They'll see numerous warriors, small carts carrying the wounded and eggs, and dozens of noncombatants. If they fire on the Kobold Scouts, they'll see the Warriors forming up to attack them.

From here, things get interesting. I'm anticipating my player characters will just attack them (Lol puny Kobolds!). If they do (Or if they try to defuse the situation and are unsuccessful) they're in for a nasty surprise. The Kobold leader is a gladiator With over 100 hit points and pack tactics, the tribes sorceror is 6th level with fireball, half a dozen of the Warriors are dragon shields, the leader rides a red guard Drake, two of the Kobolds are spies (Two scouts) and 18 standard Kobolds have Spears, studded leather and shields.

Bear in mind the party have already gone six encounters since their last long rest and are seriously low on spells. Those dragon shields have 44 hit points each.

Of course if they try to talk to them and succeed in the appropriate skill checks, they instead get some useful information, that will come in handy when the orcs attack the town that the player characters are headed to (an attack scheduled to happen after the player characters next long rest).

That encounter is scheduled to include waves of orcs, orogs, tanaruuks, and some beefed up war ogres (CR 5 Ogres In half plate with mauls, Multi-attack, and double the hit points). The orogs and Tanaruukk will be beefed up via a bless spell from an eye of Gruumsh.

Of course, during the orcs attack on town several NPC's friendly to the party will be abducted by the orcs to be sacrificed at midnight the following night. This gives our intrepid PCs just enough time to storm back to the dungeon they cleared way back when they were second level (It's just under a days ride away) and deal with another six or so encounters (With just enough time for two short rests) and try to rescue the NPCs before the sacrifice takes place.

One of those encounters features five orogs and a CR 9 champion (The orog boss). One encounter features one of those hobgoblin Devastator battle wizards (Reskinned as an orc) an elite orc archer with the sharpshooter feat (or poisoned arrows, I haven't decided yet) and waves of orcs and orogs.

If the PCs fail, In addition to losing several important NPCs, and the respect of the town, a CR 17 Gloristro is summoned and unleashed on the town along with an orc horde. The PCs instead have to deal with that threat for three nights before the Eagle knights (campaign is set in Andoran in Golarion) arrive as reinforcements.

Humans have spy's, gladiators, champions and mages. So do my Kobolds and orcs.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Good stuff, [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION]. Lots of examples of the kinds of things I think work to keep players from becoming too comfortable with the game and their characters' place within the game world.

 

[Flamestrike]

Good stuff, @Flamestrike. Lots of examples of the kinds of things I think work to keep players from becoming too comfortable with the game and their characters' place within the game world.

The town is Falcons hollow (Andoran, Golarion), and the kobolds are from crown of the Kobold King (Pathfinder module). I'm basing an age of worms campaign in that area, with a few random side adventures. All reskinned to 5E. The PCs have just recovered the sword of aquaa, the lightning sword and a fragment of the rod of seven parts! They also have an active talisman of the sphere (But no sphere of annihilation yet). They've just taken out a CR 15 legendary demon that I created (Loosely based on a Nalfshnee with extra legendary actions)

They're feeling pretty chuffed with themselves. The druid is wearing the diadem of Ziosiel (Sets his wisdom to 21, grants resistance to necrotic damage, and a permanent protection from good and evil).

My PCs previously cleared the Kobolds out and rescued the children way back when they were second level. During the adventure they allied with the Kobold sorcerer. I'm looking forward to seeing if they remember him. If things go totally pear-shaped with the kobold encounter, I can have the sorcerer remember the PCs (Humans and elves all look the same to kobolds, but he's pretty canny!) to bail them out.

We may even have a situation where the player characters ally with the kobolds to help them get back into the dungeon. Which is pretty hilarious when you think about it.

Of course I'm anticipating a mindless attack on the kobolds the instant they're seen. PCs gonna PC and all that.

 

[Flamestrike]

If anyone is intrested, here are my notes for the above adventure. Its for PCs of 11-12th level (or thereabouts) who are leaving a dungeon to head back to town. It probably requires a bit of massaging to make work with your group:

Attack of the Pale Master:

As the PCs leave the dungeon (before taking a long rest) they spot (DC 15 Perception) a Kobold scout ducking down over a hill 30’ away. If they take chase or investigate they notice a small force of 4 dozen reddish hued kobolds pulling several carts laden with prone (DC 20 Perception, notes they're wounded) kobolds, eggs and gear on the other side of the hill, around 30’ from the crest. They ready for combat as the scout races back in terror squealing something in draconic (pink ones, pink ones!).

The leader rides a lion sized draconic creature with red scales; he barks out commands and the warriors line up in a defensive formation around the carts, as the others scramble to get their spears. As they race around, at least two trip over, and one runs away.

Kobold Chieftain
Small humanoid (kobold), LE
Armor Class: 18 (scale mail, shield)
Hit Points: 112 (15d8+ 45)
Speed: 20 ft.
Str
16 (+3) Dex
18 (+4) Con
16 (+3) Int
10 (0) Wis
12 (+1) Cha
15 (+2)
Proficiency Bonus: +3
Saving Throws: Str +6, Con +6, Dex +7
Resist: Fire
Skills: Intimidation +5, Athletics +6
Senses: darkvision 60’, passive Perception 11
Languages: Common, Draconic
Challenge: 5 (1800 XP)

• Brave: The chieftain has advantage on saving throws against being frightened.
• Brute. A melee weapon deals one extra die of its damage when the chieftain hits with it (included in the attack).
• Sunlight Sensitivity: While in sunlight, the kobold has disadvantage on attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
• Pack Tactics: The kobold has advantage on an attack roll against a creature if at least one of the kobold's allies is within 5 feet of the creature and the ally isn't incapacitated.
• Magic weapons: The chieftains spear attacks are magical

Actions
• Multiattack. The chieftain makes three melee attacks or ranged attacks.
• Spear: Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft. and range 20/60 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) piercing damage.

Equipment: Scale mail, shield, spear of returning (Kobold heirloom - only returns for those with ‘the blood of the fire dragon’, valued at 500gp) 152 gp.

Rides a Red Guard Drake

Kobold Sorcerer. Increase HP to 54 (10d6+20), Spell DC to 14 (+6 with spell attacks), Add: Fireball, shield, hold person, slots: 4/ 3/ 2. 5 Sorcery points (Heighten spell, empower spell). CR: 3. AC 15. Scroll of fireball. Platinum nose ring worth 50gp, 15 gp. Speaks common and draconic

6 x Kobold Dragon shields. Scale mail and shields. AC 18, +5 to hit, 1d6+3 damage (multi-attack). Range 20/60 ft. Add protection fighting style (reaction to impose disadvantage to one attack roll made by a target you can see to an ally within 5’ of you). Equipped with several spears. 1d6 gp each. Fight as a group. Resist (fire).

18 x Kobolds. (several) Spears, studded leather + shield. AC 15, HP 10 each. Spear: +4 to hit, damage 1d6+2 range 20/60 ft. Id6 sp each. Disorganised, and fight in waves.

If questioned and talked down from combat (DC 20 Persuasion/ intimidate, grant advantage if the PCs offer to help them) the Kobolds can reveal they’re refugees from Droskars crucible (attacked by a force of ‘white orcs’), and looking for somewhere to live. They reward any healing of the wounded by gifting the PCs the scroll of fireball, and 100gp in coins.

Raid on Falcons Hollow (after PCs return to town and complete long rest)

PCs are woken (give them a long rest) by screaming outside, horns blaring. When they look outside, black fletched arrows slam into the ground, and townsfolk are running from the outer walls. Smoke fills the air, and dozens of Orcs can be seen mercilessly cutting down peasants. Obviously the town is under attack!

When they step outside, they are attacked by the following force whenever it feels appropriate:

War Ogre: As Ogre, Wears half plate (AC 16), HP 118 (14d10+42), Spd 40’, Str 21 (+5), Attack: [maul] +8, 4d6+5 damage and DC 16 Str save or be knocked prone. CR 4

Orog and 4 Orcs [ 2 x groups]. All Orogs have been blessed by an Eye of Gruumsh before the battle starts.

Tannaruuk in Half Plate (AC 16) who makes 2 greatsword attacks and one bite with multiattack leads the attack.

6 Orcs with crossbows (Dex 16, +7 to hit, 1d10+3 damage and 2d6 poison damage, AC 15)

All orcs are painted in white woad, and bear black armor, with white insignia (crossed claws, and a smaller set of crossed arms above it). Both Orogs, the Ogre and the Tanaruuk have had bless cast on them prior to the battle commencing by an Eye of Gruumsh.

After the battle, Laruel the healer, Brikinsnurd the gnome merchant, and several other NPCs from the town are reported missing.

During the battle, Allustan the NPC Wizard has the presence of mind to capture an Orog if the PCs do not.

The PCs offered chance to interrogate the Orc. DC 15 intimidate check to make it reveal (in Orcish):

• The Orcs are camping at a dwarven ruin to the NW. They cleared out a bunch of ‘blood hued rat lizards’ from the caverns beneath.
• They were ordered to get sacrifices for the pale master to complete the ritual. The ritual happens at the next midnight.
• The pale master is all powerful. He makes special orcs. Scary orcs. If the PCs describe a tanaruuk, he confirms it.
• The pale Master is the one who used his magic to push into the human lands. He opened a special door. A magic door.
• The ritual will also open a magic door. A door that will allow ‘the beast’ through. The beast will lead us to glory.

If the PCs fail to get this information, Payday (speaks Orc) can do it for them. He employs brutal torture to obtain this information though (a white-hot brand to the private regions, cutting off body parts, and worse) which he thoroughly enjoys. Roleplay the out of it. Good aligned PCs should have issue with this (award inspiration to any that intervene)

DC 15 Int (history) reveals the Orcs carry facial scars that indicate they are ‘Raging Boar’ tribe Orcs from the Hold of Belkzen. DC 15 Int (investigation) by someone who makes this check also reveals while the Orcs carry the facial scarrings of the raging boar clan, their shields and banners show a different sigil (two crossed hands and two crossed claws; white on a black background), and the covering of themselves in white woad is an unusal tradition for the Raging boar orcs. If asked, the orcs call themselves the ‘Pale ones’.

Allustan and Gavel Thuldrin request the PCs scout out the ruins and try to stop the ritual from happening while the town waits for Eagle Knight reinforcements from the Eyrie. The PCs have just enough time to get there on horseback and stop it (they should get there by around 9pm, leaving them 3 hours to find a way to infiltrate the keep and stop the ritual before the clock strikes midnight).

On the way:

When the PCs get to Droskars cruicible, they see that there is a sizeable encampment around the keep, which has been hastily repaired. It is nighttime. The encampment features cut down trees set up as spiked palisades (with breaks in them, the Orcs haven’t had much time and have been focussing on repairing the keep), and tents pitched up all around the keep. The orcs have dug crudely concealed pits in the forest as well (DC 15 Perception to spot, Dex 15 avoids, fall = 2d6 bludgeoning and 6d6 piercing damage).

A sizeable force of Orcs has been deployed to neighbouring Silverton. Unbeknownst to the PCs this force was intercepted by a contingent of Griffon riding Eagle Knights and has yet to return to the keep. The remaining orcs have been called back to the safety of the keep.

Outpost

The only force guarding the exterior of the keep is on the main road to the keep, around 150’ from the entrance. It consists of 2 Orogs, 8 Orcs, 1 eye of Gruumsh, and an Orog Captain. Its night time, and the Orcs have a crudely constructed palisade on either side of the road, that stretches for 30’ either side, leaving a 20’ gap in the centre. Two long concealed pits (one either side) lie to the sides of the palisade, and barring the road, the whole area is heavily wooded.

Orog Captain
Medium humanoid (orc), chaotic evil
Armor Class 18 (plate)
Hit Points 126 (15d8 + 60)
Speed 30 ft.
STR 18 (+4) DEX 10 (+0) CON 18 (+4) INT 12 (+1) WIS 15 (+2) CHA 15 (+2)
Skills Intimidation +6, Survival +6, Perception +6, Athletics +8
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 16
Languages Common, Orc
Challenge 6
Aggressive. As a bonus action, the orog can move up to its speed toward a hostile creature that it can see.
Brute: The Orog adds an extra damage dice when it hits with a melee weapon attack
ACTIONS
Multiattack. The orog makes two greataxe attacks.
Greataxe. Melee Weapon Attack: +8 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: (2d12 + 4) slashing damage.
Javelin. Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack: +8 to hit, reach 5 ft. or range 30/120 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6 + 4) piercing damage.
Battle cry: (1/day): Each allied creature that can hear the Orc within 30’ of it gains advantage on attack rolls until the start of the orcs next turn. The orc then makes a melee attack as a reaction. This also alerts the keep that enemies approach.

Tactics:

The Eye casts bless (targeting the 3 Orogs and itself). The Orogs are smart enough to hang back behind the palisade in total cover and wait for the bless spell to take hold. The Orcs charge the PCs (hurling javelins if they cant close the distance). Once the Orogs are in melee, the captain uses his warcry. The Eye holds back from combat in total cover behind the palisade, to ensure its spell doesn’t drop. On its turn it moves, throws a spear and moves again behind total cover. It has enough spears behind the palisade to last it the entire combat.

If pressed by flying PCs or similar overwhelming force, they fall back to the keep, keeping to the cover of the trees as they do so.

Keep:

The holes in the outer walls have all been bricked up in the past few days, and the only way inside is through the outer courtyard. The solid wooden doors are barred (AC 15, 100 HP, Str athletics break DC 25). The outer courtyards walls are manned by 6 Orcs with crossbows (Dex 16, +7 to hit, 1d10+3 damage and 2d6 poison damage, AC 15, half cover) 3 per wall. Ladders lead to the walls from the inner courtyard, and these Orcs can be replaced at the rate of 1/ round (max 4 replacements). Each archer carries a warning horn. Bonfires light the area surrounding the keep.

3 patrols of (1 orog and 5 orcs) rise up from inside the keep to defend the inner courtyard if the door is breached, the horn is sounded or intruders make it that far. In addition, a Hobgoblin Devastator (actually an Orc) oversees the keeps defences. The devastator casts a semicircular wind wall to protect the inner keep, and (while standing behind the wall in the corridor) lobs fireballs into the courtyard. Replace fog cloud with shield, and L-bolt with wind wall. An Eye of Gruumsh stands next to him at all times. The Eye casts bless on the Orogs before they enter battle once the outer courtyard is breached, and stands next to the Devestator ready to cast cure wounds if he is injured. The Eye has his shield out at all times, and uses his protection fighting style as a reaction to protect the devastator.

In total there are 30 Orcs that guard the keep - 10 x Orc archers, 15 x Orcs, 3 x Orogs, 1 x Hobgoblin devastator and 1 Eye of Gruumsh.

If the PCs can sneak past the Orcs and enter the keep unnoticed, the Orc patrols each reside in rooms 6, 7 and 8. The Devestator and Eye sleep in Room 10, the archers rotate through area 13 when not on duty manning the walls. The Orcs (aside from the archers) are all awake during the night (the archers sleep as they are required to rotate though guard duty on the walls outside).

Inner defences

Room 16 is guarded by a Champion (with the aggressive trait) and 4 Orogs. They are under strict orders to stay in the room, and prevent a second layer of defence if the keeps guardians should fall.

Hint that the PCs to take a short rest at this point.

Dungeon level(s)

The remainder of the dungeon levels are cleared out by the Orcs, and empty of any dangers barring two rooms – One large chamber leading to the throne room (guard chamber) and the adjacent sacrifice room (where the ritual is taking place).

Guard chamber:

Dralsiflex (a large Hezrou with wickedly sharp fangs, and flickering oddly…) and 4 Hell hounds (his pets) inhabit this room. The hounds are used to the Hezrous stench. Replace fire damage and resistance on the hounds to acid (they’re abyssal hounds who spit acid and are resistant to it).

The odd flickering of the Demon, causes creatures to have disadvantage on attack rolls against it. If it takes damage, the property ceases to function until the start of the demons next turn. This property is suppressed while the demon is incapacitated, restrained, or otherwise unable to move. In addition he can teleport up to 120’ as a bonus action. His bite deals 4d10+4 damage, his HP are 186, and his CR is 10.

Dralsiflex was the victim of a botched summoning attempt by a mage many centuries ago. His odd blinking and flickering is a consequence thereof. Its driven him quite mad. The only thing he cares about are his ‘dogs’ (the abyssal hounds). If one is slain, he flies into a rage (extra bite as a bonus action, resistance to all damage) for the remainder of the encounter.

Sacrifice chamber:

The Pale master (an albino glabrezu with 50 extra HP, 1 Legendary resistance, magic weapons trait, AC 18, and pincers that inflict 3d10+5 damage. His attack bonus is +10 to hit. Increase proficiency by +1 for all other things. He can cast lightning bolt 3/day DC 16 in addition to his other spells. CR 11) and 2 Tanaruuks guard this room.

The pale master is shrouded in a continual darkness effect. He recasts it if dispelled. He uses power word stun on the first round, and melees, with his claws, while casting lighting bolt or dispel magic with his melee attacks thereafter.

When the PCs enter the room, the Tanaruks are in the process of placing Laurel on the altar. She is conscious, notices the PCs and lets out a cry, alerting the demons.

Each tanaruuk is capable of two attacks per round with their greatswords (plus a bite). They wear half plate armor (AC 16).

The tribes treasure is in this room. It’s a CR 11-16 Hoard, with additional magical items as a CR 6-10 Horde (no extra coins or other gump).

Let the Players roll the treasure. Screw it, this was a tough adventure. Hand them the DMG and let them go nuts. Plus, award them an extra 5,000 xp each for saving the town and the lives of the NPCs. Laurel also takes a romantic interest in one of the PCs (if they went out of their way to save her). They get feted with a massive party on return to the town, and statues are erected in their likeness. Make them feel good. Hand every player a beer. You want them telling stories about this adventure years from now.

If the PCs fail:

If the PCs fail to stop the ritual, a very angry CR 17 Goristro is summoned. It (along with enough Orcs and Orogs as you feel happy with to really screw the PCs over) attacks the town the following night. It is three nights until reinforcements come to save the PCs. The Goristro uses it siege monster ability to smash churches, PC residences and anything else they care about or would be hilarious to destroy. In addition, now Laurel (the healer) is dead, healing potions in Falcons hollow are much harder to find, and double in price.

Also; show them the paragraph one up so they know what they missed out on. Let them stew on it till the next session.

 

[Celtavian]

[MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION]

Again you assume optimal positioning for the players and put the "dumbness of dumbness" in the orcs. We do not take space into account simply because we are using the lord of the ring scenario. You keep putting the PCs in a good limelight whereas they were not aware of the horde. They are exploring an unknown vast and I mean very vast room where hundreds could stand with many many many openings. Stop putting your PCs out of the situation to put them in a good tactical encounter where they can win easily.

The whole point of this situation is to point out that contrary to other editions, the orcs would stand a real threatening chance to win that encounter with the PCs. We have already conceded that in some scenarios the PC could and would win. You only take these into account and blatantly ignore what we are saying. Take time to think about it and you will see that the possibility of failing for the PCs in that scenario is real.

OB1 did a white room math and proved that the PC would be in way over their heads and he was only using standard orcs. I said a horde. That means clerics and orogs and everything that orcs can bring about. And they will not hesitate to put flaming oil on the ground putting concentration spells at risk and doing auto damage every round. Even a DC 10 with advantage can be failed. With 3 to 5 silence spells in the middle of the players, no more spells for your PCs. They would simply be toast.

One thing I will give you is that doing the 300 or the 10,000 orcs fight would be boooooring to the extreme. All one sided battles are.

I will concede that point. In a vast open space where the PCs did not see the sheer number of orcs that were going to pour out of cave openings like in the LotR movie in the great hall in Moria (Orc spiders were amusing), 5E PCs at just about any level would eventually die if they stood there and fought. This would be a fairly easy fight for 3E characters. I'm not entirely sure for earlier edition characters though. Eventually 20s would hit with 10000 and older editions didn't have as many hit points as 3E and 5E characters. It might be a similar situation with 1st and maybe 2nd edition.

 

[Celtavian]

I won't disagree with your assessment...I even agree with it to an extent. I address it in my game in a number of ways, many of which have been discussed before and whichI won't bother going into now.

What I do want to mention, however, is that in your description and examples, the PCs are always master tacticians...moving from cover to attack and then back into cover, and so on. They work in unison, and they try to maximize their actions. But you never describe the monsters in the same way. Why do the PCs all have cover available, but not the monsters? Why do the monsters not attack from range? Why don't the monsters ready actions to shoot once a PC steps from cover or starts to cast a spell? Why don't the monsters attack and then take cover and repeat?

If the monsters behave tactically as well, that goes a long way to balancing things out. Whether it's 300 orcs or a Balor and some demonic underlings, there's no reason for them to sit around and wait to be slaughtered. Each and every enemy NPC should be behaving as tactically as the PCs. I mean, why wouldn't they? Does an orc think "I'm just an orc soldier...I'm expendable"? I think it's far better to play most enemies as if they want to win and more importantly to live.

My point being that not everything boils down to the abilities of the monsters; how they are run and what the DM chooses to have them do can be just as impactful, if not more so. You described monsters as bags of hit points...and it sounds like that's how you think of them. Players pick up on that...they know to expect it. They are not surprised by the creatures' behavior in any way. This plays into my last point...you have to surprise players. If every single enemy is run simply as an obstacle to be defeated, then that's all they'll be...and then your players won't behave as if they are anything more than that.

This is why your PCs wouldn't flee from a horde of orcs and why you don't even think that's odd. All you are thinking of is the game mechanics and not what those mechanics are designed to represent.

I don't describe the monsters in the same way because most of them (a good 90%, maybe higher) don't have anywhere near the same tactical options at their disposal as PCs. That's why in my experience the best enemies for PCs has always been an opposing PC party. Yes, I realize you can design orcs to be an opposing PC party, but they sort of lose their orcishness at that point and just become orc PCs/NPCs.

Part of the problem with nearly any edition of D&D with monster versus PC is the limited nature of the monsters versus the nearly unlimited options at the PCs beck and call. It makes for very one-sided battles unless the DM modifies the encounter heavily. My feeling is that if I have to heavily modify the creature from what its fantasy archetype is known for to challenge the PCs, it sort of becomes something other than its fantasy archetype. For example, if I have to give Smaug a bunch of minions to help and other magical abilities, he's not really Smaug any more. He's my modified dragon specifically made to mechanically challenge a group of PCs with far too many powerful options for fighting standard fantasy archetype creatures. It's a bit disappointing from my perspective give I primarily play to simulate the heroics of my favorite fantasy books and movies.

 

[Helldritch]

Flamestrike post #346 is a perfect example of what I usualy do with monsters for med to high level characters. The characters are of heroic proportion and so should be their enemies.

The way to do it differs from DM to DM but remains essentialy the same.

As for older editions.
I had a Dwarven fighter 23rd/cleric 10th stopping an entire army of 20,000 goblins (on a bridge similar to the Lord of the ring but It was in 1984 or 1985... no copyright were violated) (we were using Dragon Lance's race limitations). It was a semi white room fight but it took us a lot of time to actualy finish the fight. We told ourselves, never again...

Yet, we tried it again, with the battlesystem. This time, the dwarf had a rougher time, but succeeded anyway.

2ed and 3.5 might go the same way. But if a lone Dwarven fighter/cleric could do it, a whole group would not have any difficulty and the fight would be way faster (but still a pain in the ass to resolve).

What I like about 5ed is the fact that with these kind of scenarios, the PC will have no choice but to flee and regroup if they want to have any chance to succeed. This is quite refreshing from other editions. Is it perfect? Nope. But I am sure that it will improve with time.

 

[Celtavian]

Flamestrike post #346 is a perfect example of what I usualy do with monsters for med to high level characters. The characters are of heroic proportion and so should be their enemies.

The way to do it differs from DM to DM but remains essentialy the same.

As for older editions.
I had a Dwarven fighter 23rd/cleric 10th stopping an entire army of 20,000 goblins (on a bridge similar to the Lord of the ring but It was in 1984 or 1985... no copyright were violated) (we were using Dragon Lance's race limitations). It was a semi white room fight but it took us a lot of time to actualy finish the fight. We told ourselves, never again...

Yet, we tried it again, with the battlesystem. This time, the dwarf had a rougher time, but succeeded anyway.

2ed and 3.5 might go the same way. But if a lone Dwarven fighter/cleric could do it, a whole group would not have any difficulty and the fight would be way faster (but still a pain in the ass to resolve).

What I like about 5ed is the fact that with these kind of scenarios, the PC will have no choice but to flee and regroup if they want to have any chance to succeed. This is quite refreshing from other editions. Is it perfect? Nope. But I am sure that it will improve with time.

Perhaps it will improve, but I doubt it. The same math that makes PCs weak also makes monsters weak. As some others have shown, a 5E ancient dragon can be killed by a 100 lvl 1 fighter archers. Normally a 10,000 orc army runs from an ancient dragon. In 5E, an ancient dragon or a balor would be handily killed by a 10,000 orc army. It wouldn't even be a contest as the dragon or balor would eventually succumb to bowfire even with range and disadvantage. In fact, an orc army firing bows might kill it in one round or the game time equivalent of six seconds due to the same math that makes higher level PCs vulnerable to low monsters. Yet even in a fairly gritty setting like LotR, Smaug the Golden destroyed a dwarf city and the entire dwarf army defending it alone. This is not possible in 5E using 5E math as written. You would have to modify Smaug greatly for this to occur.

Yet this was possible in 3E just as a 3E high level character defeating a 10,000 orc army was possible.

So each edition has a different feel. Maybe 3E had a wider ability to simulate different play-styles better. You could go gritty in 3E and simulate the surrounded by orc army feel. Or you could go epic and simulate the invincible dragon. In 5E there really is no invincible dragon unless you make it yourself and specifically make it to be immune to the attacks of a vast number of creatures using normal attacks. At the same time you don't want to put it out the range of a party to kill. You have to play with the math and game mechanics to capture it.

It seems simplicity and bounded accuracy came with a cost that makes for a game with mechanical limitations that don't simulate as wide a range of fantasy archetypes as 3E. That being said, the 3E bloat is still far too great to make me want to go back. I figure I'll eventually figure out how to mathematically build a creature that does what I want it do. The nice thing about 5E is it is very easy to modify.