Lava - What is it?

[Nail]

Even if "should a very specific 2nd level spell be able to counter a very specific higher level spell" is a valid question, it's meaningless in a dicsussion about flashfreeze and lava. And as already pointed out, the game designers themselves think that low level spells should be able to counter higher level spells in the right situations.

Right.

In addition, the 9th level spell in question (Rock to Lava) is in a different splatbook (i.e. not core, and so not necessarily tested against) and isn't really up to par as a 9th level spell anyway.

Lower level spells can counter higher level spells....but be honest with yourself: Is the druid going to have the Flash Freeze spell ready to go when the BBEG casts Rock to Lava? Come on......

 

[James McMurray]

Lower level spells can counter higher level spells....but be honest with yourself: Is the druid going to have the Flash Freeze spell ready to go when the BBEG casts Rock to Lava? Come on......

I doubt it, hence my:

If that druid is lucky enough to have memorized a relatively pointless spell like Flashfreeze when the opposing 17th level spellcaster tosses out a Transmute Rock to Lava, let him have his day in the sun (assuming he can still cast that spell while taking continuing lava damage).

from a few posts back.

Also, I'll clarify in case anyone reading gets the wrong idea: I'm not saying that Flashfreeze should be usable as a counterspell for Transmute Rock to Lava, just that it should be able to freeze the lava afterwards.

 

[Nail]

I doubt it, .....

I hope I'm being clear: I agree with your reasoning.

 

[James McMurray]

Yeah, I got that. It was more of a "hehe, I said it first" thing.

 

[pallandrome]

I'd let it work, but unless it's a really SMALL amount of lava, that ain't gonna stay frozen for more than 2 or 3 seconds. Lava is going to be at least 1300 - 1650 degrees F. Possibly 1800 - 2280 if basaltic. Cooling a patch of it to 15 degrees F or so wouldn't do squat to prevent the rest of it from heating up again, pretty much instantly. So the GM has every reason to prevent this from working. the question is, does he really want to? From what I can see, this isn't exactly an incredibly useful spell. Unless your story line would be crippled, I'd let the effort be useful to the party in some way. Points for creative thinking, you might say. On the other hand, if you really DON'T want them to do that...

FUN SCIENCE FACT: If you throw a cool river rock into a roaring hot fire, there is a chance that the rock will actually explode! Imagine that, times a thousand!

 

[Nail]

FUN SCIENCE FACT: If you throw a cool river rock into a roaring hot fire, there is a chance that the rock will actually explode! Imagine that, times a thousand!

For the most part, that's because water, trapped in the rock, turns into a gas. The heated gas wants to expand, can't escape, and so puts tension on the rock....ker-boom!

A rock that was formerly lava sitting at the surface is not likely to have much water trapped within. (the water's volatilized already.) Hence no explosion of newly formed rock.

Moreover, rock has a relatively high energy of fusion. So melting that newly cooled rock back into lava will take quite a while. In my own experience melting basaltic magmas, several grams of rock powder takes several minutes to melt at 1200 degrees Celsius.

IOW: that newly cooled solid rock stays solid for quite awhile......of course, it will sink before it will melt....

 

[hong]

I've had fun with lava. A red dragon with snatch and Flyby Attack comes out of it, grabs the druid, does a loop, and plunges back in. 20d6 is a pansy 70 points per round, I don't know why the player was crapping his pants....

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I'd let it work, but unless it's a really SMALL amount of lava, that ain't gonna stay frozen for more than 2 or 3 seconds.

That's the direction I'm leaning toward. Give it a round, but that's it. After reviewing Wikipedia's definition of lava and magma as being "molten rock," I think I'd agree that the spell will function on lava (albeit only briefly).

 

[Arkhandus]

Even if you do allow it to work; once someone steps on the 'frozen' surface block of lava, it's probably going to sink in right quick under the extra weight as it's heating up. They may find their feet singed or worse depending on how long they stay on it.

James: I meant from a rational standpoint. PWK is a word, not a series of words that need to be invoked. Once you hear enough of that word to recognize it as PWK, there probably isn't time REALISTICALLY to incant the activation phrase for a Cure Light Wounds that hasn't been Quickened to a shorter activation phrase.

I'm afraid I wouldn't buy an argument from a player if it centered on a belief that the entirety of absolutely every single D&D spell's incantation was unique, down the first syllable, such that any spell could be recognized the very instant a PC hears the enemy speak the merest beginning of a spell's first syllable. And then counter its effect with another spell of similar casting time, somehow invoking it faster than the enemy finishes his own spell that he had already started first. I'm afraid I would have a much easier time believing that a human being in D&D must hear at least a few syllables, before he or she could be reasonably certain what kind of spell is being invoked.

I can understand how a counterspell could be a tad shorter in casting time; it only has to nullify the power being tapped by the other spell, not actually dictate the accumulation and use of that power from some eldritch source. So it can probably be completed with a few altered syllables and the last few syllables just left off. I can also understand how Dispel Magic might be easily used for counterspelling in similar manner, having some shorter version of its incantation that leaves off the syllables dictating a nullification of already-present magical forces.

 

[airwalkrr]

If you are trying to be technical, lava is molten rock. It is rock superheated to the liquid phase. Due to its heat, it tends to react explosively with air, which is why you can't breathe near the mouth of a volcano; all the oxygen has already been burnt up. That is also why you will note occassional fires in lava flows; as they move to areas where there is oxygen, fires start where they may.

Lava is liquid stone, but it is not fire, water or earth, unless earth counts as stone to you.