Law and Chaos Nonsensical, Consequences of Removing Them?

VirgilCaine

First Post
I think it's time for my obligatory "There's no such thing as chaotic evil or lawful evil, there's just plain evil. Law and Chaos are not and have never been coherently defined in D&D and, realistically, cannot be coherently defined in a system that includes good and evil" post. There are several reasons for this.

One is that "Good" and "Evil" have a special meaning in the English language that is not properly accounted for by the alignment system. In general, good is the opposite of both evil and of bad. Consequently, a concept like the Platonic form of Good or the G.E. Moore's "good" is specific. There is no lawful form of Good and chaotic form of good. There is only the one form of the Good. Similarly, in Moore's system, the optimific action or belief, etc is aimed at a single and simple good. It doesn't come in lawful and chaotic varieties. Under no real-world interpretation of the good would people say "we're both shooting for good but you also want law and I also want chaos." Instead, they would, quite rightly, say that they disagree about either what IS good or how good ought to be achieved or maximized. Quite simply, good subsumes secondary notions and cannot be included in a two-axis system without wrecking it.

Law and Chaos have their own problems, however, independent of the problems created by including good and evil in a two-axis system. Quite simply, the D&D notions of law and chaos lump together a number of various ideas that are actually completely independent and are sometimes even opposed.
For instance, brainstorming for law will usually yield some combination of the following results: respect for the law of the land, respect for authority, organization, civilization, tradition, honor, order, using a system, honesty, reliability, knights, dwarves

Brainstorming for chaos will usually yield some combo of the following results: individualism, free-spiritedness, shamelessness, disrespect for authority, granting no inherent worth to (or sometimes opposing) honor, tradition, and the law of the land, not using a system, flightiness, entropy, barbarians, elves.

All of these are written into D&D in one way or another and, individually, seem to make sense as oppositions. However, combining them into the mega-concepts of law and chaos does not work because many of the individual elements have no connection to each other or actually oppose each other.

Tradition and positive law, for instance, both tend to fall under the auspices of law while individualism and a lack of respect for the rule of law fall under the auspices of chaos. However, tradition and positive law are actually opposing forces. Societies that depend upon positive law to uphold their institutions tend to be highly individualistic (and highly dependent upon the rule of law). On the other hand, societies that lack a formal legal code typically depend upon tradition to uphold their institutions and tend to have a more collective concept of identity. They also tend to be more primitive. Furthermore, honor is a far more important concept in traditional than in modern societies. (This is recognized in fantasy too--how many barbarians have scoffed at the lack of honor among city-dwellers).
So, based on that simple comparison: Tradition (law) goes with collectivism (also law), barbarians (chaos), lack of positive law (chaos), and honor (law). On the other hand, positive law (law) goes with civilization (law), individualism (chaos), non-honor based societies (chaos), innovation vs. tradition (chaos), etc.

If we wanted to base our comparison on the knight/barbarian dichotomy, we would find a different set of paradoxes. The knight supports the rule of law and civilization, and honor but this will often go against established traditions (how many stories tell of knights destroying indigenous cultures--including their own--based upon the edicts of their sovereigns). The barbarian, on the other hand, believes in the traditional ways of his people, personal honor ("you have insulted my honor..."), and living in harmony with the land. In fact, if one goes back to the law/chaos brainstorm, the only real difference between the paragon of law (the knight) and the paragon of chaos (the barbarian) is which lawful concept--the law of the land or tradition--they tend to uphold and whether they represent civilization or barbarism.

At every stage that you attempt to make logical sense of the law/chaos axis, you will find more problems. The easiest solution to this is to simply recognize that the law/chaos axis is a bunch of nonsense--a random group of ideas strung together without any real concern for whether they actually belong together or not.

As commonly used, chaotic evil types tend to be more destructive of society and lawful evil types tend to be more subversive of society. Increasing chaotic evilness risks anarchy while increasing lawful evilness risks tyranny. (These are not hard and fast distinctions just how they're often used in games. There are plenty or arguments for chaotic evil tyrannies and lawful evil creating anarchy--that's because nobody actually uses law and chaos for exactly the same things and the D&D system uses them for a number of things that actually have no real connection).

Whether it's better to live in Rwanda or the Stalinist USSR is an open question. My observation is that it seems to take longer to pick up the pieces after anarchy but that tyranny is more likely to endure for several generations. (Then again, Rwanda's been a mess for pretty much as long as North Korea has been a tyranny so maybe that's not right either). They're both bad.

I don't know who posted this, but I got this from some thread here on Enworld.

So, now that Law and Chaos, IMO, have been proven to be nonsensical, what are the consequences of removing or de-emphasizing them from the Core rules? Or maybe coming up with a new definition of Law and Chaos?

I could:
1. Remove Law vs. Chaos
2. Redefine it so it is meaningful.
 
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Considering I disagree with the quoted post in its entirety, I don't see the point.

Heck, just switch to the Allegiances system from d20 Modern. Saves a lot of trouble.
 

Ah, someone dug up one of my old posts.

To answer the question, I have used option 1 in my games and it's worked fine. (Actually, I just tell players that I don't attach any objective meaning to law or chaos and that, while they can write it on their character sheets if they want, it will have no game effect). Doing it successfully requires a few things:
A. Removing Law/Chaos effects from the game. No Protection from Chaos or Chaos Hammer spells. No Axiomatic or Anarchic weapons. No Dictum spells. No Detect Law or Detect Chaos spells.
B. Altering the cosmology to account for this difference. Fortunately, this requires less work than you might think. If you like Slaad, all you have to decide is whether they're good, neutral, or evil and give them the appropriate DR and spell like abilities. (You could leave those alone and just let their Chaos Hammers effect their enemies fully, but this would represent a marginal strengthening of the slaads with such abilities). Even removing the strong distinction between demons and devils need not change much about the cosmology. If you like the blood war, it's just as possible to have the Blood War between the rebel angels and the twice-fallen (who also reject the Adversary's authority) as Sepulchrave does as it is to cast it in terms of a cosmological law/chaos split. Removing cosmological significance from the conflict doesn't really alter it much.
C. Live with a few otherwise impossible multiclass combinations such as barbarian/monk, barbarian/paladin, monk/bard, and paladin/bard. None of them particularly bother me though it would notably expand the archetypes available to the monk. If you don't like them, you can ban them on the grounds that paladinhood or monkhood requires an internal discipline and commitment to emotional control that prohibits rage.
D. Either embrace a more robust interpretation of good and evil than the gruel-thin pop utilitarianism of the PHB, or embrace a kind of relativism about good and evil (as Sepulchrave seems to do). Without the "it's not good or evil, it's just chaotic," you'll actually have to decide whether stealing and lying, etc are evil or not. (You know, you'll have to make up your mind on the same issues that you do in real life moral philosophy).

As for redefining law and chaos, I think that such an attempt would be doomed to fail because of the connative meaning of good and evil. As I said in the above post, it distorts our understanding of ethics to say that Aquinas, Plato, and Peter Singer disagree about the value of law or chaos rather than to say that they disagree (or agree) about what makes something good and what it means for something to be good.

It's certainly possible to define law and chaos--the leading candidates are probably flexibility vs. adherence to strict principles, civilization vs. nature, and order vs. chaos (small c chaos). However, I don't think it's possible to convincingly include them in some kind of two-axis ethical system. Ethics is about right and wrong, obligation and prohibition (as well as "we're not sure" and "neither obligatory nor prohibited"). Such standards will inevitably take a position on things categorized as lawful or chaotic as well as good vs. evil.

If you really really want to save the two alignment axis system, you could probably work it out by maintaining all nine alignments but labelling it a one-axis system with detection/smiting, etc. being a matter of opposed alignments rather than opposed axes. (Thus a priest of a lawful good god would call lawful good "good" and chaos and evil would equally be departures from it and would both show up on a detect evil spell and a lawful evil priest would call lawful evil "right" and chaos and good would equally show up as weakness when he did an alignment detection).
 

The only thing stopping you removing or shifting Alignment is that a sizeable chunk of the game is directed at them. Detection spells and abilities, circles of protection, and similar. If you are happy removing them from the game then there isn't a problem.

I have considered dropping law and chaos, sticking with just the good/neutral/evil axis, but I'm happy with alignment so I never bothered.
 

Strange...

I prefer to remove Good and Evil from my campaigns instead of Law & Chaos.

If anything, Law and Chaos are -FAR- more easily defined than Good and Evil. And I'm a big Michael Moorcock junky...
 

I've of the view that most discussions of Law and Chaos get nowhere because there is just too much baggage associated with the terms.

If I was to boil down what I believe to be the essence of Law and Chaos into a single concept, it would be this:

A Lawful person's behavior is determined by an external set of principles: the laws of his country, the rules of his organization, the norms of his society, the tenets of his religion, etc.

A Chaotic person's behavior is determined by his internal wants and desires.

To the extent that external principles are harder to change than a person's internal desires, Lawful characters are more resistant to change than Chaotic ones.

Because they are more used to following external rules instead of their internal desires, Lawful characters also tend to be more disciplined and can co-ordinate better than Chaotic ones.

Applying the character's determinants of behavior to the rest of society (everyone should obey these rules, like I do; or everyone should be free to do as they want, like I do) gives us the stereotypes of the law enforcer and the freedom fighter.

A Lawful character doesn't have to obey all laws, just the ones he believes in. A Chaotic character doesn't have to act like a madman, his desires are seldom that fluid.

A Lawful character can be creative, but he may not act on his creativity if it goes against the rules he believes in. A Chaotic character can make a plan and follow through on it, as long as there is nothing that he would rather be doing at every stage of the process.

A Lawful character can do things that seem Chaotic because he is ordered to. A Chaotic person can do things that seem Lawful because he wants to.

So, given all the above, is the Law/Chaos dichotomy meaningful? The short answer is yes, if the DM thinks it is. If the DM wants, he can even ignore the Good/Evil alignment axis without changing the game too much.
 

HellHound said:
Strange...

I prefer to remove Good and Evil from my campaigns instead of Law & Chaos.

If anything, Law and Chaos are -FAR- more easily defined than Good and Evil. And I'm a big Michael Moorcock junky...

I'm with you. I've also given a lot of thought to a world where the primary axis of conflict is law/chaos rather than good/evil.

Anybody remember D&D? Good and evil are the newcomers to the alignment system.

-Andor
 

I think it also comes down that these can be highly complex areas and require a greater understanding when the complexities are explored. And not every gamer is ready for that, they want simple.
 

HellHound said:
Strange...

I prefer to remove Good and Evil from my campaigns instead of Law & Chaos.

If anything, Law and Chaos are -FAR- more easily defined than Good and Evil. And I'm a big Michael Moorcock junky...
If D&D Law and Chaos were Moorcock law and chaos, or Glorantha (Runequest 2E) law and chaos, I would completely agree with you.

When next I run D&D, I'll do exactly what was suggested by the original poster: remove law and chaos, only have the good-evil axis. I agree that while alignment, as spelled out in the rules, still wouldn't be perfect, it would work so much better than it does now.
 

HellHound said:
Strange...

I prefer to remove Good and Evil from my campaigns instead of Law & Chaos.

If anything, Law and Chaos are -FAR- more easily defined than Good and Evil. And I'm a big Michael Moorcock junky...

That's my approach - my campaign has always been heavily Moorcock-influenced & I've decided to remove Good & Evil as Alignments and just keep Law & Chaos as Allegiances. Moorcockian law implies Stability, Chaos implies Change. This is a bit different from Law as 'Order'. On a Moorcockian approach, those who advocate 'perpetual revolution' would adhere to Chaos, emphasing change & continuity adhere to Law. The Moorcockian system implies that Balance between Law & Chaos is best for human thriving, as opposed to OD&D "Law = Good". Honour is not inherently Lawful or Chaotic. The British Empire was Lawful, the 20th century totalitarian dictatorships Chaotic (tending more Lawful after decades in power - eg Maoist China Chaotic, modern China more Lawful). So D&D "Lawful Evil" actually is more Chaotic in the Moorcockian approach, although the Hell of Dante's Inferno where the devils do God's will by torturing sinners would be Lawful.
 

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