Law and Chaos - the predictable and not so predictable

[Phaedrus]

For those of you who do house rule alignment... how do you handle Detect Alignment spells, class restrictions, etc?

The more I think about it (and ponder how I've played the game), we don't really pay much attention to alignment, and no one really uses those spells much. We just judge people (and creatures) on their actions, unless they look particularly "monstery", in which case they need to be killed so we can take their stuff.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Etc.

No, what I'm saying is that enacting a Bill of Rights is not an inherently-aligned act, unlike, say, animating a skeleton (which is demonstrably Evil, though someone might do so for Good reasons).

I'm further saying that people of differing alignments can decide that the same action is the right one - even though they come from completely different directions and rationales.

Furthermore, I'm not adding a 3rd Axis, but rather just codifying something that is already present in the rules in order to efficiently differentiate between those who see Neutrality (on any axis) as a desirable goal in and of itself (so-called "Active" Neutrality) and those who merely don't care (so-called "Passive" Neutrality).

Neutral, “Undecided”: A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she’s not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.

Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run.

Neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you act naturally, without prejudice or compulsion.

 

[FireLance]

I think another significant problem is that the Law-Chaos alignment chart posits the idea that the rule of law and individual liberty vary inversely with one another. But we know from real world experience that the reverse is true. Countries where the rule of law is most consistent and valued are those that have the most personal freedom not the least. The problem with D&D alignment is that it can't reliably register whether enshrining a bill of rights is a lawful or chaotic act.

Well, enshrining a bill or rights is a Lawful act to me, because it makes rules for how people in society should interact with each other. The fact that it could actually result in more personal freedoms seems to me to be a Good objective rather than a Chaotic one, in the sense that Chaotic people value their own personal freedoms, while Good people value the personal freedoms of others as well. Lawful Good people are willing to sacrifice some of their own personal freedoms so that others can have more, within the context of the rules of society, of course.

 

[fusangite]

Well, enshrining a bill or rights is a Lawful act to me, because it makes rules for how people in society should interact with each other. The fact that it could actually result in more personal freedoms seems to me to be a Good objective rather than a Chaotic one, in the sense that Chaotic people value their own personal freedoms, while Good people value the personal freedoms of others as well. Lawful Good people are willing to sacrifice some of their own personal freedoms so that others can have more, within the context of the rules of society, of course.

Are you arguing against me or making my point?

 

[FireLance]

Are you arguing against me or making my point?

I'm arguing that the value that a person places on his personal liberty and freedom depends on his attitude towards Law and Chaos, but the value that a person places on the liberty and freedom of others depends on his attitude towards Good and Evil. So, a bill of rights is Lawful because it curtails personal freedoms, but Good because it promotes the freedom of others. A Lawful Evil person would not want a bill of rights because he places no value on the freedom of others. A Chaotic Good person would not see the need for a bill of rights because he values his own personal freedom too much to have some document telling him what he can or cannot do. He still values the freedom of others, and would take active steps to prevent what he perceives to be abuses of human rights, but he would do so personally or with a group of like-minded individuals, rather than depend on laws and institutions.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

A Lawful Evil person would not want a bill of rights because he places no value on the freedom of others.

Chaotic Good person would not see the need for a bill of rights because he values his own personal freedom too much to have some document telling him what he can or cannot do.

I disagree. I believe that rationale, differently-aligned beings could all desire a Bill of Rights - and might even draw one up.

What it looks like, what rights it guarantees, and - most importantly - why the person drew it up in the first place will be markedly different, however.

 

[ARandomGod]

I disagree. I believe that rationale, differently-aligned beings could all desire a Bill of Rights - and might even draw one up.

What it looks like, what rights it guarantees, and - most importantly - why the person drew it up in the first place will be markedly different, however.

I'm going to have to agree with Patryn. Sure, people will have different ideas about how such a bill should be drawn up, but differing alignments could certainly support such a thing.

 

[ARandomGod]

For those of you who do house rule alignment... how do you handle Detect Alignment spells, class restrictions, etc?

Detect Alignment... noone uses it generally. However I do have certain types of things have an alignment... Deva's and Devils. Archons and Arch-fiends. Etc.

Class restrictions? I generally ignore them. There are ways to get around that even in games where it's not ignored.