LE Paladin in Adventurer's League

[Mephista]

On death, he goes to the lower plane of Hell (or wherever) that corresponds to his actions and actual alignment, regardless of why he committed his evil deeds, or the justifications he used for them. He detects as evil, and so forth.

Actually, where a soul goes upon death depends on the campaign in question. In Forgotten Realms, its all about what gods you serve. They've reserved the Wall of the Faithless for those who don't worship; even if you're 100% Lawful Good, if you don't worship the right gods, you won't go to Mount Celestia or either of its neighboring planes. You could be a LG paladin to a Chaotic god in FR.

In Planescape, it was all about the alignment. In Forgotten Realms, its the gods. In Nentir Vale? Everyone went to the Shadowfell, then somewhere else. Dark Suns, which is cut off from the Outer Planes? Eberron which doesn't use the Great Wheel?

Eberron is especially curious, because it broke from the standard alignment restrictions in 3e, that we follow all now. There is no "plane of alignment" when you die in Eberron.

And there are no "detect evil" powers in the game anymore. Not in 5e. The closest is the pixie or sprite, who can read your personality summed up by an alignment, but that's not the same as "Detect Evil." After that, there's a handful of sentient magic items that care about meshing with your personality, using alignment as a short hand.

You really can't compare D&D to anything in real life, because of gods. In real life, generally speaking, many religions define their gods as the ultimate good. Following their teachings is Good. In D&D, we have Evil and Neutral gods. Follow an evil god, and you're rewarded upon death as a follower of a good god. So, if a follower of Bane dies in favor with their god, they are rewarded handsomely for being an evil jerk.

So, there's no shock, no surprise over being an "evil" person. I use quotes because what Evil means in D&D doesn't match to what it means in real life. Good in real life is subjective, defined by what a culture generally believes it to. In D&D, its an objective force with specific definitions. You not being good? Visit the local cleric who can run a divination spell and find out if you're bad or not. You a powerful villain who thinks he's doing the right thing, justifying their actions? When you get a direct proof in any number of ways that, no, you're not? Either you're literally insane and cannot see reality, or you deal with a god who supports what you want.

Bringing in questions of morally grey stuff in D&D doesn't work because, in the end, there's nothing to prove that Good is actually better than Evil. Certain races/cultures prefer certain philosophies or gods, but there's no proof one philosophy / god is actually better than other options. Indeed, Evil is often portrayed as a necessary part of the balance in D&D worlds. In a twisted way, the only real "good" in D&D is balancing Good and Evil.

 

[Riley37]

That's probably why Riley37 said, "heals someone out of generosity and goodwill" (emphasis mine).

Yup. Delericho isn't too busy looking for the "gotcha!" to skip over what I actually said.

Healing a teammate isn't generous; it's an action which (a) is likely to be reciprocated and (b) gets you a more-capable-of-helping teammate.

Healing minor NPCs, without direct reward in goods or services, just because they're hurt and he can heal them, is an act of generosity and goodwill.

However, another poster added some excellent nuance on how the Mistress of Pain regards the relationship between healing and suffering, and that's useful for my understanding of the mix of motives.

 

[Riley37]

Alignment is basically irrelevant in D&D 5e. It's his oath (at 3rd level) that matters because if he willfully violates it, he can be forced by the DM to abandon his class.

I see the box on page 86. As I understand it, the DM should make such a decision only if the PC both violates the oath AND subsequently declines to take corrective measures, "shows no sign of repentance".

 

[Riley37]

1) Remember, Divine Senses don't detect good or evil auras anymore. They detect celestials, fiends, and undead. A demon, a devil, a yugoloth, and various undead can each feel differently.

2) Look beyond just the alignment. That's just a shorthand for personality - you actually have several different aspects of the personality as part of the character generation process now. What is the character's personality, the flaws and bonds? Is he religious? What are his goals? I've seen some LE characters that serve Asmodeus as a kind of bounty hunter, tracking down evil and sending it on its way to the Nine Hells as a kind of sin eater. I've seen LE servants of the dark fae, serving as wardens and guards.

3) Forgotten Realms isn't Planescape. Two LE gods aren't automatically aligned because they share an alignment, nor are two gods automatically opposed because one is Lawful and the other is Chaotic. If he's a servant of Bane, or even allied Myrkul or Bhaal, the place should feel comfortable. If we're talking about serving a different, opposed god, lets say? Then no.

(1) PHB 84: "The presence of strong evil registers on your senses like a noxious odor, and powerful good rings like heavenly music in your ears. As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces." That's explicit.

(2) Oh, of course!

(3) So far, he's used Divine Sense in a temple to Bane, with obelisks which caused magical fear. The relationship between Bane and Loviatar is a special case.

 

[Flamestrike]

(1) PHB 84: "The presence of strong evil registers on your senses like a noxious odor, and powerful good rings like heavenly music in your ears. As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces." That's explicit.

My LE Paladin rationalizes this heavenly music to be yet more deceit by the false Gods of 'good'. The sound sickens him, ringing in his ears like a mockery of everything he once erroneously held dear.

He's grown accustomed to the noxious odor of evil, finding it reassuring, drawing on it to fuel his faith in the might of Bane, where others weaker than him might instead be repulsed.

 

[pemerton]

Ultimately, everyone who thinks about D&D alignment has to decide where they draw the boundary line between neutral and evil on the spectrum of "apathetic to the suffering of others" and "active malevolence".

I think that Gygax's characterisation of "evil" is as good as any: purpose is the determinant - that is, the evil character doesn't recognise other people (and their rights, dignity, lives, etc) as any sort of constraint on his or her will.

Whereas the neutral person doesn't accept purpose as the determinant: s/he simply fetishises order (if LN) or freedom (CN) in a way that doesn't recognise that these are truly worthwhile only if they serve human dignity and wellbeing.

(I also think that Gygax's take on True Neutral as a type of "balance"/naturalistic philosophy is more coherent than neutral as selfishness, which is very hard to distinguish from moderately evil, as your post hints at.)

 

[pemerton]

My LE Paladin rationalizes this heavenly music to be yet more deceit by the false Gods of 'good'. The sound sickens him, ringing in his ears

I like this.

 

[Riley37]

Ah, my bad. Thought you were talking about an AL game

Flamestrike has a PC in a non-AL game.

I am DM of two tables, and one of them is AL, and that table has a newbie LE Paladin.

I am also posting in the AL forum, over in WotC territory.

 

[Riley37]

even so, if you are...I am curious/confused as to why you would "anticipate a discussion" about the PC's oath when the time comes.

You are curious and confused about why the DM of an AL game would take an interest in how exactly someone plays an LE Paladin PC? Um... are you an AL DM?

I run a table which is (one tiny part of) the public face of D&D. A parent brought his 10-year-old son to the store, to watch our game, so that the 10-year-old could get a first-hand idea of what D&D is. If that 10-year-old's glimpse of D&D had started with a scene in which a PC paladin of Loviatar tortures an NPC for information... well, I'd hate to contribute to a negative misperception. So yeah, I want to be prepared, just in case a situation like that emerges. I want to have pondered the issues. And some people on EnWorld are helping me ponder.

The Friendly Local Game Store (and indirectly WotC) are trusting me with the DM role. I aim to keep their trust. I don't let players use the F-word at the table, because the store doesn't like to hear that word used under their roof.

I am also posting on the AL forum on a WotC site. I will see what they say there. I will be very surprised if the WotC people say "back off, man, it's not your business as DM to worry about how an LE Paladin of Loviatar influences the tone of the table". They have pointed out that Oathbreaker is NOT a valid option for AL; the player was planning to go Oathbreaker, and so I'm the bearer of the news of "sorry, can't do that in AL".

Just as a point of order, are you a manager of the AL program? If not, then perhaps you are overstepping which boundaries are yours to keep, and which boundaries are theirs to keep.

 

[Pickles III]

I think that Gygax's characterisation of "evil" is as good as any: purpose is the determinant - that is, the evil character doesn't recognise other people (and their rights, dignity, lives, etc) as any sort of constraint on his or her will.

Whereas the neutral person doesn't accept purpose as the determinant: s/he simply fetishises order (if LN) or freedom (CN) in a way that doesn't recognise that these are truly worthwhile only if they serve human dignity and wellbeing.

(I also think that Gygax's take on True Neutral as a type of "balance"/naturalistic philosophy is more coherent than neutral as selfishness, which is very hard to distinguish from moderately evil, as your post hints at.)

As an small aside when we used to play 1e we distinguished between "True Neutral" - actively seeking the balance and "Neutral" which is more like 4e unaligned.

I have also had neutral character carry out evil acts to balance out all of the good acts they were doing, though this was just to highlight the ridiculousness of the whole alignment system.

I therefore have no issue with the LE paladin in AL . I have a LE warlock Zhentarim & I mostly talk an evil/fascist/very selfish line rather than actually doing anything to undermine my peers.