LE Paladin in Adventurer's League

[Flamestrike]

That could work, but doesn't suit my personal tastes. I don't see good and evil as a matter of perspective within D&D. In fact, compared to the moral relativity of real life, the black-and-white morality of D&D is a fun and refreshing exercise. I'm working from the Great Wheel and the way good and evil function as properties of magic. Good and evil are quantifiable forces at work, and there are planes and beings that are inherently good or evil. In real life, most people doing evil think they are doing what's right. In my D&D games, there are literally evil creatures that wake up and say "Man, I love doing evil things."

Oh for sure. A villian that does evil acts is (objectively) of evil alignment (depsite his own subjective views or justifications of his own morality). On death, he goes to the lower plane of Hell (or wherever) that corresponds to his actions and actual alignment, regardless of why he committed his evil deeds, or the justifications he used for them. He detects as evil, and so forth. This may come as a shock to the person in question, and he may even be in denial of this (blaming faulty detection magic, or justifying it in other ways).

Self delusion is a powerful force in real life; its no different in a fantasy world. The objective reality of a characters alignment may very well not reflect the characters own subjective views on his own morality, or the justifications for his actions. The vilest of villian may view himself as a good person and vice versa.

Just like the most evil and tyrannical of governments or people can (and do) good things, does not make them good. Nazi Germany may very well have implemented free health care, social security and opened orphanges (only for the 'German race' of course), but in the overall scheme of things, are still considered an evil tyrannical government.

Just like Hitler thought he was doing the right thing, and acting for 'the greater good' in the face of what he percieved to be 'an evil global conspiracy against the Arayan race', an evil villian can justify almost anything in the name of 'the greater good'. Persecution, war, murder - even genocide. In fact very few (if any) genocidal people view thier actions as evil; its almost always the opposite.

Human beings are far more complex than nine seperate discreet alignments and an infinite variations of moral codes and codes of behaviour exist within the 9 DnD alignments. Look at the behaviour of the PC in totality to determine his overall alignment.

Consider a person who is the foulest of villians, with no respect for authority and no empathy for the suffering of people other than his close relatives. He would murder an innocent child with no mercy. However he treats his own children and family with respect, love and dignity, prepared to sacrifice everyting he has (even his own life) for his own children. Indeed he may be repulsed by his own actions, feeling them only necessary to protect his family from even viler monsters and in pursit of a 'greater good'.

While he may have a noble intention, and doesnt view himself as an evil person, he is CE in alignment.

 

[Mouseferatu]

For example my LE paladin refuses to harm children - he even donated money to an orphanage (being an orphan himself). Its almost a thing he clings to to try and convince himself that he is not 'really' evil.

"That's why I wear these. To remind myself that I'm not cruel for the sake of cruelty. That I'm not my father! That I'm not a monster!... Am I?" --Wilson Fisk, Daredevil TV series.

Granted, it's pretty clear throughout the series that Fisk is using his higher goals as an excuse (even if he's deluded himself into believing otherwise), and by the end of the series, he's accepted that he's just a right bastard. But it remains a pretty good portrayal of someone who can commit evil, and know that his actions are evil, but still remain convinced he's got a good, justifiable reason for them.

In fact, the morality of comic book characters and that of D&D alignments, while far from identical or easy to map on a 1:1 basis, are close enough that you could do far worse then look to the comics, or the other media based on them, for examples of most alignment issues.

 

[ad_hoc]

Remember that evil people usually take on 1 of 2 forms.

They think they are good.

They think their actions are justified to right a wrong that was committed against them.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Every time he heals someone out of generosity and goodwill, that compromises his LE alignment, right? He could lose his membership in the Evil League of Evil!

I mean, if he heals people out of generosity and goodwill, probably.

But were I to play an LE healer, my take would be something like...

"Here", he says, laying his hands on his ally. "You'll need this to continue to be useful."

Or if he heals some wounded orphan or something, "Remember this well, child. Remember that Bane has healed your wounds. So when next you hear the self-important and ignorant preach of his wickedness, you will know them for the fools they are. Bane has helped you when none of them did."

More generally, while Vengeance would seem most appropriate, I could easily concieve of an LE ancients paladin or an LE devotion paladin just fine (the first, all "You shall not trespass upon this sacred light!", the last all "My god and my church must survive")

And I'd personally have Detect Evil still make 'em nauseus and unpleasant. That's just what Evil feels like - someone who embraces it would know that enduring this makes them strong, and be dismissive of the comfort and security noticed when Good is detected. Such feelings are weaknesses.

 

[Mirtek]

I played the exact same character. A LE Human Paladin (vengange) of Bane.

Formerly worshipped Torm. Martyrs Progeny from Tantras.

He sees Torm as 'evil' and a false God that decieved his parents before ultimately killing them during the Time of Troubles by taking their lives to slay Bane in the bay of Tantras. He has now dedicated his life to wiping out the very Church his parents gave their lives to protect.

He has a soft spot for orphans, being one himeself.

From his perspective its the LG Paladins and church of the false God of Torm that are evil, along with the Harpers and church of Cyric (who both further discord in the Realms). Looking to establish a lasting Banite theocracy before traveling to Celestia and killing Torm personally.

He is loyal to those that have earnt his respect, but doesnt tolerate fools lightly.

That's a pretty old human, since that mass sacrifice thing in Tantras happened more than 130 years ago.

 

[mlund]

There's always the self-directed existential crisis too. I mean, in a world where there are Evil and Good (and apparently Neutral, for whatever that's worth) "gods" of equal stature, how to you decide which divine will (if any) is correct? Yes, Good and Evil are metaphysical forces that persist even when "gods" die, but what's the point? Choosing between the two is going to result in a metaphysical philosophical construct. Build a "bad" one and you get a philosophy of "evil" in D&D terms. It might be as simple as deciding that there is no objective right or wrong and recognizing, in that context, that 'good' is just an ideology that the weak and lazy embrace to try to excuse their inferiority to the strong and diligent. Hold such people in contempt and treat them accordingly - voila, Lawful Evil.

Being lawful evil can be rooted in something as simple as being convicted that you more self-aware than "superstitious weaklings." In D&D terms that's enough to fuel a Paladin.

Marty Lund

 

[Flamestrike]

That's a pretty old human, since that mass sacrifice thing in Tantras happened more than 130 years ago.

The DM has rulled we are in pre Spell plauge FR. Circa 1380 DR

Its a character I ported over from 3.5. Has the Martyrs Progeny and all that. Parents were both adventurers (a Paladin and a Cleric of Torm respectively) who came to Tantras to worshsip at the Gods feet. My father was instrumental in ousting the zealots who had converted Tantras into a debased woship of Torm.

Then, to reward a life of service to Torm... the God killed them. Because Torm was weak. Too weak to slay Bane personally.

I was six at the time, and raised in the Church of Torm as one of the Martyrs progeny, and a Paladin of Torm. During a mission to track down my older brother (who had gone missing following an investigation into the cult of the dragon) I found he had been killed. Torm had let him down in his moment of need too. I tracked down his killler (who was still clad in my brothers armor) and defeated him after a short battle. Unarmed, defenceless and pleading for his life, I struck him down with no mercy or compassion. Shortly thereafter I noticed my paladin powers had deserted me.

Realising Torm for the false, fickle and evil God that he was, I swore vengance on him and all his deluded worshippers for the ruin he had brought to my family, taking them away from me and stripping me of my power for bringing my brothers killer justice. Accordingly I did the only thing that made sense and pledged my soul to the one God god who I knew could not only defeat Torm, but hated him as much as I did; Bane. In exchange for my loyalty to the black hand, I would be granted the power to bring vengence on the false believers of Torm the 'untrue'.

The sad irony of my character pledging his allegiance to the very God my parents willingly gave their lives to protect (my character beleives they were duped into martyring themselves) is totally lost on him.

He plans to use the Church of Bane and the Black network to establish a foothold in the Sword Coast, purge the remaining Cyricist influences from the Western church of the black hand (the Pereghost is in his sights), and then embark on a program of conquest and the building of a Theocratic empire dedicated to Bane. From there, the pogroms against the Tormites will begin in earnest.

Once complete, and Torm is sufficiently weakened, I intend to travel to Celestia and kill the false God personally.

Only once the false God is dead, and the entire continent is brought under the singular heel of Bane, will we have peace, unity and order in the Realms.

 

[DMCF]

I dislike "Good and Evil" concepts because mechanically it supports ethos but for characters it boils down to individual ethics. It's probably one of the worst part about D&D and I hope things like traits, backgrounds, flaws etc. get expanded since they offer so much more enrichment to a character when played out.

Here is how I handle the mechanics vs. the players.

Yes detect evil will detect good/evil in accordance with the multiverse's ethos. The interpretation however, is left to the ethical view of the individual character. Therefore an evil character would hear awesome things when evil is afoot and smell gross things when good is around.

 

[mlund]

Every time he heals someone out of generosity and goodwill, that compromises his LE alignment, right? He could lose his membership in the Evil League of Evil!

Remember, "petting the dog," does not disqualify someone from being an immoral monster. Plenty of serial killers, rapists, and the like act as model parents and neighbors - or at least "normal" people in their communities. They can even sincerely believe they love and help the people that matter. It is only when placed in front of the right target and in the right context that their depravity becomes apparent. If the person has a rationalized construct of how they are justified / obligated to commit such acts then you've got a solid case of Lawful Evil in D&D terms.

Marty Lund

 

[Mirtek]

The DM has rulled we are in pre Spell plauge FR. Circa 1380 DR

Ah, my bad. Thought you were talking about an AL game