LE Paladin in Adventurer's League

[Riley37]

Adventurer's League is set in Faerun, in Forgotten Realms, and has specific rules regarding allowable characters.

One of the players has attended 3 of the last 3 weeks, and is playing a variant-human paladin, LE, a member of the Zhentarim faction. This is within AL rules, and the player is not disruptive; he runs his PC as a contributing team member, and in fact he's the party healer, by healing kit and by Lay On Hands.

I am fully on board with the 5E de-coupling of class abilities and alignments, and also the end of limits on what race and what alignment can be what class. Even so, I am a bit baffled. When this paladin uses Divine Sense, and detects a shrine to Bane, it feels evil; does the evil feel... familiar and comfortable?

As per AL rules, he's starting at level 1. When he reaches level 3, I anticipate a conversation about what oath the PC might swear. Vengeance seems the most LE-compatible to me.

 

[delericho]

One of the players has attended 3 of the last 3 weeks, and is playing a variant-human paladin, LE, a member of the Zhentarim faction. This is within AL rules, and the player is not disruptive;

Okay, sounds good so far.

I am fully on board with the 5E de-coupling of class abilities and alignments, and also the end of limits on what race and what alignment can be what class. Even so, I am a bit baffled.

It is slightly odd, at least in the case of the Paladin, where the fluff of the class is very much about the class being crusaders against evil. That's not insurmountable, of course - "I may be on the side of the angels, but don't think for one second that I am one of them." (to quote Sherlock)

When this paladin uses Divine Sense, and detects a shrine to Bane, it feels evil; does the evil feel... familiar and comfortable?

As per AL rules, he's starting at level 1. When he reaches level 3, I anticipate a conversation about what oath the PC might swear. Vengeance seems the most LE-compatible to me.

I suggest having that discussion with the player early, and in particular working out the answer to your question above. Maybe it feels familiar and comfortable, or maybe what he detects is the wrong type of evil, and so feels just as corrupt as any other. Or maybe the character does actually think he's one of the good guys, doesn't realise that he's evil himself (and so evil still feels 'wrong' to him - presumably, he doesn't use Divine Sense on himself). Or something.

 

[aramis erak]

A modern examble of such a character might be Sanya from Dresden files... "Sanya admits that he does indeed love conflict, but he now chooses his fights more carefully." (DFRPG, Vol 2) He also admits to selfishness.

 

[Flamestrike]

I played the exact same character. A LE Human Paladin (vengange) of Bane.

Formerly worshipped Torm. Martyrs Progeny from Tantras.

He sees Torm as 'evil' and a false God that decieved his parents before ultimately killing them during the Time of Troubles by taking their lives to slay Bane in the bay of Tantras. He has now dedicated his life to wiping out the very Church his parents gave their lives to protect.

He has a soft spot for orphans, being one himeself.

From his perspective its the LG Paladins and church of the false God of Torm that are evil, along with the Harpers and church of Cyric (who both further discord in the Realms). Looking to establish a lasting Banite theocracy before traveling to Celestia and killing Torm personally.

He is loyal to those that have earnt his respect, but doesnt tolerate fools lightly.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Just to collect the answers above, you have...

-- The Knight Templar. Doesn't know he's actually evil. Most easily justified as a "I bring order to chaos and sweep away the inefficiencies so people can live and work as well as possible!" kind of person. Or a less-insane Handsome Jack (from Borderlands 2); someone so completely convinced of his own heroism, he's okay with murdering innocents and stealing from the homeless. After all, if it were bad, he wouldn't be doing it, because he's a Hero!

-- "In 'Good' Comany." Knows he's evil--and approves of the Evil things he finds. After all, he does the Devil's own work, or can appreciate a master craftsman.

-- "I still have *standards.*" Knows (to one degree or another) that he's Not A Nice Person, but there are lines he won't cross. Works especially well if the Lawful side is strong, but not too strong (that verges on Knight Templar territory).

And then one of my own:

-- "Tch. Competition." He knows how evil minds work--because he's got one--and he knows they're after the same things he is. Other Evils are not so much hated or feared, but rather evaluated by how much they interfere with his own machinations. This works especially well for a more "chessmaster-y" or "charlatan" kind of character, one dipped in subterfuge or long-range plans.

 

[Riley37]

Thanks for some good responses (so to speak). The Holmes quote seems appropriate.

No, he's not a Templar, nor Miko Miyazaki of the Sapphire Guard (from Order of the Stick). His loyalty to the Lady of Pain is faltering. I think the player is sorting out his own ideas. DDEX sessions aren't exactly optimized for lots of time in the RP pillar, so it may take several sessions before I get a clear idea of where he's going with this. I suspect that part of the motive is something like "to do something unusual and extreme".

I may end up with the reverse of the usual problem. There's lots of stories of "the player claims LG, but the actions are CE", and the DM imposing consequences for actions against alignment. This could be a case of the player claiming LE, and then acting CG on occasion... Every time he heals someone out of generosity and goodwill, that compromises his LE alignment, right? He could lose his membership in the Evil League of Evil!

 

[delericho]

I may end up with the reverse of the usual problem. There's lots of stories of "the player claims LG, but the actions are CE", and the DM imposing consequences for actions against alignment. This could be a case of the player claiming LE, and then acting CG on occasion... Every time he heals someone out of generosity and goodwill, that compromises his LE alignment, right? He could lose his membership in the Evil League of Evil!

Maybe, but since 5e classes aren't tied to alignments, you get to not worry about it - if he turns out to be the Diet Coke of Evil, so what?

 

[iserith]

I am fully on board with the 5E de-coupling of class abilities and alignments, and also the end of limits on what race and what alignment can be what class. Even so, I am a bit baffled. When this paladin uses Divine Sense, and detects a shrine to Bane, it feels evil; does the evil feel... familiar and comfortable?

"You most definitely detect the presence of evil upon this shrine dedicated to the Black Hand. To upright and holy paladins, such a presence would register as a noxious odor. How do you perceive it?"

 

[iserith]

Every time he heals someone out of generosity and goodwill, that compromises his LE alignment, right? He could lose his membership in the Evil League of Evil!

Alignment is basically irrelevant in D&D 5e. It's his oath (at 3rd level) that matters because if he willfully violates it, he can be forced by the DM to abandon his class.

 

[bganon]

Thanks for some good responses (so to speak). The Holmes quote seems appropriate.
Every time he heals someone out of generosity and goodwill, that compromises his LE alignment, right? He could lose his membership in the Evil League of Evil!

Well, is it really out of generosity and goodwill? Is there an ulterior motive to want good will? Often my take on LE in D&D is that it represents someone who is ultimately selfish and willing to hurt others (evil) but believes in discipline and that Laws (or Oaths, or Promises) Mean Things. This is close to the "I still have standards" trope mentioned above.

For the paladin, this might mean that yeah, ultimately maybe he's out to kill/destroy the gods/world/whatever, but to get there it's best to work within the system, and meanwhile he's gonna heal the sick because he made a promise, dammit. It can be a fine line, but that's the fun part of alignments.