LEB Discussion Thread '09

[Goumindong]

I see. I was trying to calibrate by the number of party members. In think your method short changes smaller parties and rewards larger parties in terms of gold (note the DMG parcels never add any other gold parcels), but I don't think its a big deal.

Part of the reason for this is because general party cash use is fairly constant with rituals and potions as shared resources, but we really can't easily have shared resources in a living PbP game. The assumption is that the extra cash will be used to buy items.

The larger the party in a typical game they just get more items, it should be relatively the same amount of wealth though, it just comes in item form instead of cash form. Since they were likely going to buy items anyway and since shared resource use doesn't change much, its not a big deal.

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Re

Final resource proposal:

Wait a second, when did IOU parcels come in. That is a bad idea, especially if their parcels are forfeit if they leave the game. A parcel is an entire levels worth of treasure, that is a big deal and it means that players who have sudden commitments and may need to drop out are going to be unduly punished.

It should not be an IOU parcel, it should just be player choice at the time that they level, if the DM has not given them treasure then they get to give them the next levels treasure, its not a big deal.

I don't think the system with that in it, does what its supposed to do, ensure that all players have a relatively similar wealth level such that DM's can more easily extrapolate what they need to give to players and what power their players are.

edit: wealth chart is not up and that is accounting's fault,

 

[stonegod]

Wait a second, when did IOU parcels come in. That is a bad idea, especially if their parcels are forfeit if they leave the game. A parcel is an entire levels worth of treasure, that is a big deal and it means that players who have sudden commitments and may need to drop out are going to be unduly punished.

It should not be an IOU parcel, it should just be player choice at the time that they level, if the DM has not given them treasure then they get to give them the next levels treasure, its not a big deal.

I added them (as I noted the proposal was modified from the original suggestions). Three reasons:
- One: Players that disappear with no warning, while less bad than DMs, are also disruptive. I have been in games where 3/5 PCs vanished. Such PCs should not be rewarded for vanishing. Note, this is for permanent vanishing (i.e., during the duration of the adventure); players that vanish and come back may continue the adventure at the DMs discretion, re-earning their IOU.
- Two: We try to make the Living rules provide as few story straightjackets as possible. If a DM wants to have a large pile of treasure at the end (a dragon's horde), we want to facilitate that. Thus the other part of the IOU system. If treasure just appears out of nowhere when one levels, that can be disjointing from a story point of view. We want to provide DMs some flexibility on when the award treasure while maintaining the balance when the PCs leave.
- Three: If DMs abandon the game, we have a mechanism for insuring that players get the appropriate wealth they have earned (the other part of the system). This makes sure once the players leave the adventure, the group is balanced to expectation.
Essentially, within the adventure, the DM should have more say. Outside the adventure (and at its end), judges ensure the appropriate balance (by making sure the players have all the parcels they have earned). When the players begin an adventure, DMs will have the information they need to design the treasure awards within their adventure.

Yes, a player that vanishes and reappears but doesn't get their IOU item will be less balanced than one that stayed. I feel this is okay as that is the price for not-cleanly leaving (a PM or email to the DM is all that is asked; most players do this). If the other judges think that is too much of a punishment (and vote so), so be it.

 

[Vertexx69]

Not to be nasty, but if a person can't commit 5 minutes every couple of days to this hobbie for any length of time in this day and age of laptops and cell phones with wireless internet access anywhere in the world, they shouldn't be taking up the party space in the first place. Forfeiture of treasure shouldn't matter to them if they can't commit the measly few minutes a day to earn it. They should take up a hobbie thats less time consuming like fly swatting or competitive breathing! Lets face it. Deciding to voluntarily buy and read up to 8 books to play a game is kind of a serious time commitment to start with.

I have a really kaka idea that I came up with several years ago for really long dungeons. The treasure fountain. Its just a smallish pool of shimmering water that can be placed at any point in an adventure. Either a character can reach into the pool to retrieve an item of the appropriate lvl, or they can dip an item into the water to enhance it. This leaves the treasure choices more in the hands of the PCs and can explain away anyone suddenly have a new or better version of an item.

 

[renau1g]

Now it certainly takes more than 5 minutes with the way Enworld is running lately

but to be serious it does happen and it should be planned for.

Edit: As an aside did the judges get my e-mail earlier today?

 

[stonegod]

The issue is not with people not committing; its people committing and either
- Lose interest for a bit and then just drop out without courtesy
- Having something happen and vanish without a word
And then both of them coming back after the adventure is over (If they don't come back, its still not great, but is not a balance issue anymore that they didn't get their tiem). In the first case, there was nothing stopping them from taking a bit of time and bowing out gracefully. In the second, real life happens, but when it clears, its still nice to drop a note. I've had a ENWorld player/DM drop out and back in over 5 times with three-six month gaps between them. Its a bit rude. Of course, in the big scope of things, its as annoying as barrista ignoring you at the coffeeplace; but I want LEB to be a nice coffeeplace.

Most LEB 3.5 ended because PCs left w/o warning or the DMs left. There need to be incentives (RPs) to stay and punishment (lose of RPs/items) for abandonment.

 

[stonegod]

Edit: As an aside did the judges get my e-mail earlier today?

Email or PM? If email, did you send it to the judge account? I have an older PM from you that I'm thinking about (mainly because there is someone in the queue I have to address first).

 

[elecgraystone]

Not to be nasty, but if a person can't commit 5 minutes every couple of days to this hobbie for any length of time in this day and age of laptops and cell phones with wireless internet access anywhere in the world, they shouldn't be taking up the party space in the first place.

I've had internet/computer failures and I live in an area where you can't get wireless internet, cell service or highspeed internet. I've been called out of town for an emergency. I've unexpectedly been in the hospital. I've had deaths in the family.

All times when I couldn't 'commit 5 minutes every couple of days'. If possible, yes leave a quick message but that's not always possible. Please don't assume that if someone drops out for a bit, he's being an ass. That's not to say continued or repeated vanishing acts should be overlooked, I'm saying that not everyone is as lucky as you to have instant 24hr internet service at their fingertips.

 

[ukingsken]

Well my own "worldwide connectivity issues aside" since the matter on hand before we move on is the delay time before proposa;ls, I'd just like to say I voted for a month, not because I think 2 weeks is wrong, but because I didn't think a month was less right.

A little bit more time could never hurt, and I'd rather be cautious. Besides down the road if we decide we wanna speed things up, its just a proposal away.

And you're right about EnWorld being more then 5 minutes a day. I on average spend between 2 and 4 hours (partially due to my slow internet connection and partially due to the voluime of things I've been dipping into here lately). But I love it so it's all good!

 

[Vertexx69]

I had a computer blow up on me a couple years ago, so I know what its like to lose internet access for a prolonged amount of time. But every (American) town has a public library with an internet connection. So no word for months is just really inconsiderate IMO.

 

[elecgraystone]

But every (American) town has a public library with an internet connection.

LOL Again you assume a lot.
#1 my local library[in america] in fact does NOT have an internet connection available to the public. Many of your smaller communities libraries don't.

#2 there is NO public transportation that comes to my house, so even if it did, I couldn't get there.

So please stop assuming everyone has such easy access. They don't.